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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:05am PT
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Yoga is pretty nice for the ugly side of life, for me. But you don't see me pushing/offering/proselytizing it, or my seven-headed goat god, do you?
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 09:08am PT
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bravecowboy. I share my experiences with yoga to friends and patients who suffer from back pain and sciatica all the time. Why wouldn't I when they are suffering and a good regimen of strength and flexibility could relieve them of their pain?
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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I use yoga for a lot more than physical pain, Micronut. Again, I do recognize the sincerity of your offer and do not doubt the worth of your practice for yourself. Cheers to you for finding what works!
Ron, I don't call your posts anything. You are what you is. And the goat god actually has eight heads but you don't get to learn about that 'til you can prostrate yourself in the Bird of Fire position whilst balancing a cup of virgin's blood atop your crown anyway.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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Jeez Louise, it was just an offering.
"Hi my name's Micronut and I'll be your server tonight.
We have some specials tonight. I recommend the brazed pork tenderloin served with a...."
"YOU SERVE MEAT HERE YOU MURDERER???!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THAT FACTORY FARMING IS JUST A ............BLABLABLABLABLABLABLAH
Not my trip but thanks for the offer micronut.
DrlJefe. Thanks man. That was funny. That was solid.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:16am PT
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micro, that is just one piece of info.....there is so much more to clinical depression..
Did you happen to read Daphne's , Paul Souza, fear's, Ricky D's, Ward Trotter's, Ken M, The Chief's and other posts..
Between the bull and misinformation..there is a lot of insight and good info...
I hope all these open conversations educate people and help them understand the severity and the complexity of this disease..
Wishing all that suffer..better days..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:19am PT
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Every 30 minutes a farmer in India commits suicide.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:31am PT
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I offer an alternative to depression, anger, and emptiness.
Micronut is a good guy and a poseur. Through the OP title, he's also being self-referential, which makes the OP something covered by a word I seldom use - bullsh#t...
I'm looking foreward to the TR...
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:44am PT
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Joy to the world was a beautiful girl
But to me Joy meant only sorrow
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cat t.
Sport climber
CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:45am PT
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I have seen the opposite many times. I have seen the change. It happens. Thoughts like that are what compelled me to share this thread.
micronut, thanks for the response. I suspect part of the key to success in the recoveries you cite is the unending support from friends/church/etc. received by the people in question, though. I think religion can provide the backbone for a great and supportive tribe when people are struggling, but what's really helping is the caring community, not the religion itself. When you're lost in a pit of despair and people continue to love and support you (even when you perceive yourself to be awful and not worth saving)--that's the miracle.
I have seen first hand people come through the heavy wet blanket of depression and who have lived radically different lives on the other side of it. Here is a very silly webcomic about depression:
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html
While Allie Brosh's comics are goofy, it's a pretty raw and accurate depiction of depression. I'm particularly fond of the recovery moment: the writer is lost in the depths of depression, sees a shriveled piece of corn under the fridge, and suddenly the bleakness breaks and she "wakes up" from the months of emptiness. It makes absolutely no sense as a recovery moment, but I think the switch sometimes happens that way. (I had a similar experience. For me it was seeing an angry pigeon chasing a cat. After not feeling ANYTHING for years, why would a frenzied city bird suddenly provide a breakthrough moment? Depression rarely makes sense.) But the key is that when suddenly, something completely nonsensical makes you feel again, and you realize that there was a loving community there for you the whole time...yeah, that's the truly amazing part.
The message I propose, then: "provide unending love to your depressed friends, even--no, especially--when their depression has made them seem empty and emotionless." (and help them get medical help, too)
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 09:48am PT
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I like your last quote there Cat and I fully agree.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Aug 13, 2014 - 09:52am PT
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Yes.. the last quote bares repeating..
The message I propose, then: "provide unending love to your depressed friends, even--no, especially--when their depression has made them seem empty and emotionless." (and help them get medical help, too)
amen sister..
Thanks, cat t...for some well worded posts..
edit:..scuffy...your welcome..and Hey!
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 10:00am PT
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Thanks for the post, Scott. You've got true grit.
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Jawon
climber
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:12am PT
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The original post was beautifully said. As a "Jesus-follower" myself, I'd say micronut has a truthful perspective. The term "Christian" is too loaded these days... as expectedly brought up already, it conjures up images of nazis, holy wars, westboro gay-bashing, all the ugliness. How does one apologize or reconcile all these things claimed to be done "according to God's will"? Let's not go there in an online forum.
But what I will say is that for those who doubt, don't care about, or downright hate Christianity the religion because of all the terrible world history or the hurtful personal experiences you've had, I'd say micronut's original post is a more fruitful starting point in understanding what Jesus originally intended for us and it's worth another read. This has been my experience too so thanks for putting it into words so eloquently...
In Christianity come a few things that are very real and very profound, and for any of those that seek solace from their constant anger, constant inner sorrow, constant battle with depression or fear or distrust or emptiness..........it just doesn't have to be that way. Now don't get me wrong, the maladies of life and humanity do not just disappear with a life devoted to a loving and sovereign God, they just don't hold such power over you or define you anymore.
My life is full of joy. True, deep, warm, filling joy. Like being on a summit in blue sky with your best bud with nothing but endless peaks around. No lie, that's what beats inside my gut every day. And I did not invent or contrive it. It was a gift. That's all.
My life has purpose. My Fate is sealed. My days have meaning. My nights have comfort. My identity is secure. I fear not. I ride an even keel. I am slave to nothing. My load is light. My needs are few and simple. I am not lonely. I am loved. I am inherently selfish and broken but in a state of repair and for that I am grateful but I am not unique. Any true Christian feels all the above things. It's a rare thing out there and its the real deal. It's what comes with the gift of a new and fresh perspective and a transformation from old to new.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:31am PT
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Is 'good' a substance that flows? Does the mind matter? Is there an Omnipresent Magnificence Flowing Goodness?
I think of good and bad flowing from person to person almost like mutual inductance in electrical circuits. People's attitudes and moods do affect each other. Good or bad flows from person to person, and over time across generations.
For the last 15 years or so I have embraced my spirituality as part of my overall model for how I work and how the world around me works. So far it is serving me well. I don't believe literally in the stuff in the bible and I don't believe that Christianity is the only path to salvation, but I accept it as a valid path for folks to get where they want to be. I try to embrace the good parts of people and doctrines and ignore the unpleasant parts.
There is a lot to be said for unconditional love and acceptance in having a transformative role in people's lives. Maybe this is the ultimate reality after all layers of b.s. are stripped away. We all need love, we all need acceptance, and I suspect the vast majority of mental illnesses can be traced back to the way we go through psychic contortions trying to change ourselves to meet these needs when they are not externally available from our parents or other key anchors in our early life. Some people remain adamant that medication is the answer, that it is all about brain chemistry. Some people place all their stock in healing their inner child(ren) or embracing God... in the end, there are many paths and the measure of whether yours is the right one for you is whether it's working or not. If it's not working, maybe time to look around and pick a different path.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:36am PT
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Scott, while I am an atheist, as a therapist your proposal is delicate. I disagree with faith "as an alternative."
What would you say to those people whom I see in therapy that are active in the church, yet have deep bleeding wounds from years and sometime decades of physical and sexual abuse and neglect? How does faith reconcile those traumatic experiences? We have had children that have witnessed their parents murder with their own eyes...some executed, throats slit, right in front of them on their living room floor. I have had parents that have lost their children to drugs and gang violence..."the worst thing that could possibly happen to me" said one parent.
Faith is not, cannot be, an "alternative" to normal human responses to trauma. It can only be an added tool to coping with such tragedies. But coping with extreme traumatic experiences requires MUCH greater interventions than faith alone.
Respectfully,
Paul
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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Thanks for the link, Nita.
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cat t.
Sport climber
CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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Thanks nita.
Jawon, I agree that micronut's original post came from a good place. Micronut, feel free to correct me if I'm over-interpreting, but it seems that you are not suggesting religion because you want to proselytize, but rather because you want others to experience the same happiness that religion gives you.
So there. I said it. I'm a Christian who lives each day with a higher calling and a peace in me that is beyond understanding and I sometimes can't help but want to share the stoke.
Micronut: I think I understand exactly where you're coming from with this. While I do not/cannot believe in a higher power, I think I also feel that "peace beyond understanding" you describe and frequently wish I could "share the stoke," as you phrased it. I just don't know how practical or easy it is to actually share that feeling...
My life is full of joy. True, deep, warm, filling joy. For you, that peace and joy comes from Christianity. For me (odd as this may sound--sincerest apologies for the following paragraph, which may come off totally absurd), I derive that deep joy from thinking about how strange and varied life is: the parasitic reproduction of anglerfish, the 16 photoreceptor types of mantis shrimp, why plants tolerate polyploidy so easily, and above all, the fact that we get to wander around in this world wondering about all of it. I wish I could share that joy with others, too, and I certainly don't see anything wrong with wanting other people to experience the same life-stoke you've got. But talking about anglerfish doesn't make any damn sense, and talking about religion is frequently disastrous. When you're trying to share the joy via religion--well, religion comes with a lot of emotional charge--and for many people (based on some prior bad experience) that emotional charge is overwhelmingly negative.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:46am PT
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The message I propose, then: "provide unending love to your depressed friends, even--no, especially--when their depression has made them seem empty and emotionless." (and help them get medical help, too)
I and the bible agree completely
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.
17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Paul, I think Jesus gave us tools to deal with life. Hope being one and therapy being another and medicine being another. I don't see them as opposing forces.
I just hope people aren't seeing a relationship with Jesus as the same thing as "religion" or "christians" or anything else. We're talking about Christ here, not the crazy messed up hypocrites who are trying to love and follow him (like me). They mess up and they're not who we try to follow. It's the Jesus Christ who promotes things like the quote above.
-Daniel
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:47am PT
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I suspect part of the key to success in the recoveries you cite is the unending support from friends/church/etc. received by the people in question, though. I think religion can provide the backbone for a great and supportive tribe when people are struggling, but what's really helping is the caring community, not the religion itself. When you're lost in a pit of despair and people continue to love and support you (even when you perceive yourself to be awful and not worth saving)--that's the miracle.
Thanks, Scott, both for your posts and for your kind words about me. I know the caring community really helped me, as did the medication, thereapy, and all the other professional help. I never read the OP to say that anyone should rely on faith to the exclusion of professional help, any more than one could say the Bible tells us not to practice medicine. It does no such thing.
The power of Jesus Christ differs from physical assistance, though, and differs from "religion" in general. Those who threw virgins into volcanoes to appease the gods were "religious," too. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us," however, has no parallel anywhere else. The peace that truth offers differs from any other "peace" anyone or anything else can provide. Micronut, and all of us who believe in Jesus, offer to share that peace with those who seek it.
I have no desire to try to force that peace down anyone's throat, because doing so doesn't work, and because I was commanded by Christ Himself not to do so (See Matt. 7:6). For that same reason, I won't spend a lot of time trying to refute those who despise Christianity, but I can't resist this observation:
Bill Cosby, on his album from the middles 1960's, "Why Is There Air?," has a story about his shop teacher. If a student misbehaved and wouldn't fess up, the teacher would start insulting the perpetrator's family. Thus, when a student put a bullet in the furnace, and no one confessed, the teacher said "Who put the bullet in the furnace? Whoever did that has a terrible mother." Whereupon, a student blurted out "I didn't put no bullet in the furnace, and quit saying bad things about my mother!"
Some of the responses on this thread remind me of that student.
John
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:53am PT
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Let's not go there in an online forum.
Jawon, why not? It's a huge part of the equation isn't it?
Crusades, Jim Jones, Jim Crow, Civil rights in the south, Clinic/doctor killings, inquisitions, etc.
A lot of sketch has been performed in Jesus good name.
I say let's talk about anything that moves the conversation forward.
So there. I said it. I'm a Christian who lives each day with a higher calling and a peace in me that is beyond understanding and I sometimes can't help but want to share the stoke.
Micro, I admire you in many ways, but the suggestion that your calling is "higher"? Not so much.
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