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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jul 25, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
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I learned at the facelift that any discarded object over 50 years old is considered an aritfact by the feds. So I left the really old trash in-situ for the next person to enjoy.
Here, here ^ ! Good Man !
Interesting discussion.
My understanding then is that Yvonne Chouinard's pre-climbing career, hobby would have made him a felon in a contemporary context >
Oh that bastid... he should be stuck in an ant hill with cheese rubbed in his eyes and ears by a myriad of Patagonia, puff clad vigilantes :)
Not condoning the ole fut in Lone Pine in any way!
Jus' saying :)
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 25, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
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My brother and I found a perfect, clear quartz point. It was one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. We put it in a little leather pouch I carried with me and took it with us.
For two days we sat around the campfire and debated what to do with it. We looked at it and discussed each night under the stars. We finally decided to put it back. So we hiked out to the place we found it and I took out the pouch. When I opened it, it was empty. There was no whole in the pouch and it had not been opened since the night before. One of the strangest things I have ever experienced, but we figured it was a sign we had made the right choice.
Cool story Stahlbrah.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jul 25, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
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Come to think of it...
That makes Donini, Rohrer etc... Museum pieces and I am already an 'artifact'
Can I Ebay my self if I am in possession of an AARP membership card ?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 25, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
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not saying what he is doing is right knowing what we know now. It is best though to understand the time that he comes from. when we were kids we hunted arrow heads as well, we played outside with no shoes all summer killing critters with our sling shots,bb guns and then .22s as we got older. hunting, fishing, building lean toos, tree houses and dug outs. digging through old cellar holes out in the woods and keeping whatever treasures we found. now the kids play with their phones and are educated that most of the stuff we did as kids was evil.....
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 25, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
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Reward for finding things? You're crazy.
The vast majority of artifacts have little or no value in a financial sense. The story they can sometimes tell or questions they answer or people they inspire are the real value. All that is gone once you move it.
The discovery, even of precious sites, isn't doing anyone any favors except the discoverer. For the rest of us, the site is better off undiscovered. All we can do is educate people about our country's cultural heritage, and make the penalties for destroying that heritage stiff. Ultimately it is in the discoverer's hands. Will he/she loot, or not.
Messing with arc sites can get you a felony... Guess what you lose once you're a convicted felon.
AHHHHH, the jackbooted feds are coming for your GUNS!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 02:48am PT
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Jul 25, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
Reward for finding things? You're crazy.
The vast majority of artifacts have little or no value in a financial sense. The story they can sometimes tell or questions they answer or people they inspire are the real value. All that is gone once you move it.
The discovery, even of precious sites, isn't doing anyone any favors except the discoverer. For the rest of us, the site is better off undiscovered. All we can do is educate people about our country's cultural heritage, and make the penalties for destroying that heritage stiff. Ultimately it is in the discoverer's hands. Will he/she loot, or not.
Messing with arc sites can get you a felony... Guess what you lose once you're a convicted felon.
Then clearly the people who buy, sell, trade antiquities certainly don't know the value of these treasures. They clearly are involved in a market whether legal, or illegal black market in things that are pretty much worthless. Apparently they didn't get the memo. And the black market trade of antiquities world-wide perhaps in the billions of dollars clearly isn't happening because really the stuff is just worthless according to you.
Lol
My solution would be the better one. Reward people.
And according to your reasoning and logic the Mel Fischers of the world, recall he and his team found the Spanish galleon the Atocha and more, and the Barry Cliffords of the world, recall he found the pirate treasure ship the Whydah, both of whom did an incredible amount of research, archeology preservation, and salvage -- shouldn't get a bloody dime!
Well good thing you don't determine that. They both pulled in an incredible amount of wealth and they earned it. And the incredible stories have been shared publicly in many forms of media, and the artifacts are shown in museums for all people to see and enjoy.
There are now several commercial salvaging companies that are using the latest technologies in submergible robotics that are discovering, doing the marine archeology, and salvaging treasures and antiques that are worth billions of dollars. I suppose they should just stop doing so. The artifacts are worthless, no one wants them, the history and archeology is only important to a few. They shouldn't reap any rewards either for all their efforts.
Well good thing they don't listen to your reasoning. They trade on the NASDAQ and are discovering marine treasures that are worth billions. They are doing all the hard work while some stand around and scoff, or perhaps its jealousy? They deserve all the rewards that they work hard for.
The same can be done at a smaller scale for smaller less valuable antiquities so that the treasures are preserved and people receive some form of equitable reward for doing so.
Plain sense, logic and reasoning says this is the right thing to do for all involved. Everyone wins. And the archeology and artifacts are preserved.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:11am PT
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Even I know that once you're arguing with klimmer you're f*#ked, and I barely post here.
That being said, you set up a bullshit argument one you made the assumption that some obsidian flakes in the Owen's valley are comparable to a Spanish galleon on the ocean floor, there are many layers of bullshit stacked on this argument. Blah.
Show me the high dollar market for some pot sherds, obsidian chips, corn cobs, pieces of basket, or some other commonly found artifact.
Don't loot arc sites, if you do, I hope 53 feds show up at your door with an arrest warrant.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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Great video Tom!
I know of a great site below Duck Lake with tons obsidian. Fish Creek/Duck Pass was a main trade route.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:30am PT
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The top of taboose pass is black with the stuff- must be from the Fish Springs quarry which is right below.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 26, 2014 - 09:53am PT
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Context Dirtbag. Not the same thing at all. That isn't a discovery. That is destruction and defacement of a known NNA site. That is a crime.
How do you know that the petroglyphs were not a discovery to the thief???
what makes you think that the arrowheads and other artifacts were not already known? After all, they prohibited him from a specific area. Why? Why not another area?
Because they knew the stuff was there.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 26, 2014 - 11:02am PT
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Reilly...I suspected you were a digger as evidenced by the discoveries you've shared on this site...rj
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Jul 26, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
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Some many years ago I was involved in a design project for the Death Valley Interpretive Association, for a site at Cow Ck – across the street from the NPS Maintenance yard and shops, and downhill from employee housing.
Anyway, one fine day I'm onsite, meeting with the NPS, and somehow the meeting meandered over into an older, sun bleached, barnwood shop building. Climate controlled natural history/archeological archive, as it turns out.
That day, some highly placed DC Brass were present, and as the rangers began to showcase some of the well cataloged archive, ironically enquired: “Found more treasures, have we?”
This stuff will never be on public display, as near as I could sense. I was made to feel as a bit of an interloper in viewing it for my own kicks.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 26, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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klk..... THX for the info about the Bancroft....
But isn't that place the resting home of many famous Sierra summit registers?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 26, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
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klk..... THX for the info about the Bancroft....
But isn't that place the resting home of many famous Sierra summit registers?
yeah. removed from the summits by their owners, the sierra club, then put in the larger sierra club archive once the club decided to shed all of its historical records and library.
the b didn't collect the register nor did the b instigate the removal. sierra club deal entirely-- this topic comes back up over and over-- i've done lengthier explanations on other threads you can dig up if yr interested.
both archoe and museum practice have changed radically in the last several ddecades. franky is correct, in n america, most archeo excavations happen only with tribal reps involved, most of them involve documentation and reburial; most are actually left in situ. obvious exceptions for salvage archeo where a new highway or development is going to destroy the site.
i mentioned the getty because the getty had several recent bouts of bad pub resulting from some dubious collection practices that ended up in court.
folks are still adjudicating all the looting in ww2-- i actually recommend the book, the rape of euorpa, for a good read on that history. part of it got made into a movie not long ago
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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All this for some arrowheads?
I wonder how many natives actually visit these sites?
I wonder how many feds have native blood?
If it where not for this one guy would those sites have gone undisturbed or forgotten?
Seems like the classic cart before the horse mentality.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 26, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
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I'm not sure what some of you are complaining about here. This guy didn't just randomly find a couple arrowheads. The feds, quite frankly aren't going to give a rip about that.
He went looking for, and collected a lot of stuff, not just a few arrowheads. And he shows no remorse.
Just because many museums and archeologists did things in the past that we would now consider ill-advised or illegal, is not any reason to allow individuals to keep doing it.
And I have a framed set of 9 arrowheads sitting right above the computer I'm typing on. They came from my grandmother's antique store. She had no idea where or when they were collected. If I thought they'd actually benefit science somehow with no provenance, I'd be only too happy to donate them to a museum.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 26, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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I wonder how many natives actually visit these sites?
there are mono and timbisha/shoshone folks all over the east side.
some of the materials in historic sites literally belong to their grandparents and great-grandparents. these aren't all kennewick scenarios.
fwiw, the eastside and the foothills of gold rush country had some of the very ugliest white-on-indian violence of the 19th century. the history is unspeakably nasty. heizer, destruction of the california indians, is a collection of some of the relevant primary documents and usually easy to find in cheap used copies.
you can go to the wiki pages for nagra and arpa for a bare-bones summary of the law.
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 26, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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some of the materials in historic sites literally belong to their grandparents and great-grandparents.
Sure. No disputing the ownership. lol
Let me propose this to you:
My great grandpa owned a house. He put thousands of dollars of collectible items in it. He left no paper trail of where that house is. He claimed no deed from man or god. Some one not related to him found it.
I can have that someone arrested now.
Solid line of reasoning.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 26, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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Sure. No disputing the ownership. lol Let me propose this to you: My great grandpa owned a house. He put thousands of dollars of collectible items in it. He left no paper trail of where that house is. He claimed no deed from man or god. Some one not related to him found it. I can have that someone arrested now. Solid line of reasoning.
let me propose this to you: you have no idea what yr talking about, aside from suggesting that folks in oral cultures have no right to territory or possessions.
that's a remarkable thing to put into print, in this century. props for having the guts to just come out and say it,
nagrpa and arpa don't work by virtue of "ownership"-- but you'd know that if, as i suggested, you had so much as bothered to read the n00b-suitable summary on wiki. the history of nagrpa and arpa, and the relevant case law here, is complicated, and i'm not going to spoon feed it to you.
my point about many of the sites/artifacts having belonged to relatives of native folks now living on the eastside, was a response to an earlier post (or posts) in which folks seemed to be assuming that these were just random cool things buried in the dirt by aliens or the lost civilization of atlantis.
so far as yr grandpa goes, i personally would be pretty pissed if random rednecks were systematically looting my grampa's old homestead. whether or not i'd have legal remedies available would depend.
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