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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
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In a culture who's heroes leave their families behind die free soloing, leave their friends behind die wingsuiting, risk their dogs life taking them a ing suiting, a debate about "best style" seems uniquely human.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
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For me, "best" and "style" just can't reasonably go together, no matter how badly we'd like them to. Whether it's climbing, fashion, or surfing.
Just too subjective.
But since we're talking climbing, I'd agree with you Ed if "best" was replaced with "lowest impact" and "style" with "method".
For me lowest impact is preferable.
Ed, I don't envy you for starting this discussion!!!
Edit
The "style" of FA is the least of my worries right now...
I've got nanometers to worry about! And where the last few bolts should go, hand drilled on rap, of course!
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
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The best FA style is obviously on sight free solo. Hard to top that without contrivances.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
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The first point to be kept in mind is the preservation and maintenance as exactly as possible of the natural scenery; the restriction, that is to say within the narrowest limits consistent with the necessary accommodation of visitors, of all artificial constructions markedly inharmonious with the scenery or which would unnecessarily obscure, distort, or distract from the dignity of the scenery... in permitting the sacrifice of anything that would be of the slightest value to future visitors to the convenience, bad taste, playfulness, carelessness, or wanton destructiveness of present visitors, we probably yield in each case the interest of uncounted millions to the selfishness of a few individuals.
Frederick Law Olmstead, 1865
We can't or don't always decide to leave no trace, and sometimes we decide it's worth what is lost, but more often I think people like to think in terms of what is created or gained, which is probably a bit of arrogance on our part.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
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if you could do the route without Red Pointing, wouldn't it be better?
what considerations should the First Ascent take into account when choosing a style?
no one answered (I think, but I can't read that carefully) regarding why subsequent ascents matter TO THE FIRST ASCENT?
my "best style" basically leaves open the possibility that, having failed at a first ascent attempt, that other first ascent attempts are possible
in fact, the idea of an "attempt" leaves open the possibility of failure,
is there no longer a sense that failure is an option? that all first ascents must succeed?
interesting if so
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
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No oxygen Solo no Sherpa
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Laine
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
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I see your point, Ed, about the impact to the climbing community and I do feel GU FAs are the style in which to strive for. However I don't feel someone who aided something 50 years ago or even did a new route TD yesterday “took” anything away from me. In fact, I feel they provided a good for me. With so much rock out there, FAists have inspired me to find my own piece of rock and get after it.
As far as access goes, I think that is not a debate on style but rather an issue of property rights and other external factors such as ecologic issues set by land managers. Bolting and excessive cleaning of a route (before or after the fact), damage to the land by new trails, etc., can be cause for loss of access regardless of the style in which a route was put up. However I do agree adopting the GU FA ideal minimizes the risk of access loss by slowing the growth of new routes but it does not eliminate the risk.
Great OP, Ed!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
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my "best style" basically leaves open the possibility that, having failed at a first ascent attempt, that other first ascent attempts are possible
do you only get ONE first attempt? or can you fail to pull the move, and then downclimb and still be first? Isn't that a failure of 'best' style as a univocal principle (as opposed to a subjective experience)?
like the questions Ed!
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
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Ed,
I think best can be impossible to quantify with such a broad range of opinions.
But if you asked me "most respected", "preferred", or "favorite" style of FA I would be able to give you an immediate and definite answer:
Depends.
:-)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
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if you could do the route without Red Pointing, wouldn't it be better?
I think that question gets us back to your original post in which Oppenheimer tries to set down criteria for ordering styles. I have a hard time with the concept of "best," but I would have no problem if your sentence substituted "a more difficult accomplishment" for "better." The best "style" depends on what I want to accomplish by that FA. Since I usually want adventure, which requires uncertainty (if not incompetence), doing a FA ground-up, on sight, with natural protection that leaves no trace, creates more unceertainty than any other style with a risk that's acceptable considering my obligations to my family. Accordingly, for me, that's the best style. For someone else, it may be a free solo. That's why I question the existence of an objective "best" style.
John
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Jun 20, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
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Hard to do better than on sight, no rope, barefoot, no chalk.
It's all shades of grey after that.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jun 20, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
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I agree with the well-stated position by Warbler.
Sheesh, Ed, I feel for you. I'm sure you didn't see this coming:) But, as I suspect you know, neither me nor any of the posters really could help themselves in their responses. We all have only the illusion that we are actually in control of our next actions. In reality, they just "bubble up" based on who knows what. "Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do (me included)". This is one of a very few passages in the Bible that resonates with me (I added the last part).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 20, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
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I disagree,
and I think you are arguing from a position of anticipating being judged for FAs you've done...
Let's not personalize this. I'm not. You shouldn't. I've been judged for decades on my FAs, so I'm not "anticipating" anything. LOL
Actually, those decades gave me lots of time to think about the fundamental nature of climbing evaluations in general. One overarching feature comes through every time.
When one uses terms like "good," "bad," "better," "worse," and "best," such terms have two features: 1) they are evaluative terms that are vacuous without logically presuming an evaluative context and employment; 2) they are typically treated as objective, when in almost all cases their referents are subjective features of reality.
So, the overarching feature of such evaluations is that the "judges" employ such terms AS THOUGH they have THE handle on the "proper" referents of such terms, which "empowers" the "judge" to "critique" climbs according to how they ("objectively") "measure up."
The problem of such "evaluations" is two-fold: 1) the mistaken belief that such a level of objectivity exists in the first place; 2) the employment of such "standards" to critique routes.
that isn't my intention, however, defining "best style" doesn't have to include any "law" regarding adherence to that style... I'm not advocating that....
But the whole history of climbing demonstrates that people DO impose law-like contexts on people. From Robbins' infamous chopping onward (there were other such events, but Robbins' popularized the Valley Christian syndrome), those self-styled (pun intended) zealots HAVE held other climbers to THEIR (purportedly objective) definitions of "best."
By simply claiming that you have "arrived" at THE definition of "best style," you not only invite but by definition insist that these very sorts of evaluations must take place.
Of course "evaluation" is one thing, and "enforcement" is another; and I don't take you to be supporting any sort of "enforcement."
But the problem is that people naturally become zealots for those "standards" that they believe are objective and that put them into an elite camp. Enforcement inevitably follows. (And I do mean inevitably, even if only subtly.)
you could then ask, legitimately, what is the purpose of defining a "best style" if not to beat everyone into submission... but there is where we discuss why we use "less then best style"
So, see? You recognize the problem I just addressed above. The problem is actually more subtle than you are saying, though.
Even if "the purpose" is NOT to "beat everyone into submission," the best of intentions have a sick way of flailing themselves against the ragged rocks of human nature.
If there are objective standards, enforcement WILL necessarily follow. And all sorts of arguments will be trotted out to justify such enforcement: Limited resources that must be self-policed, damage done to the whole climbing community, etc., etc.
Robbins championed such arguments bitd, and they've been echoed ever since. All a huge mistake when coupled with arguments about style!
The idea that you can go back in history and impose a "what if we waited for Lynn Hill" sort of standard is ludicrous, as it is CAUSALLY absurd! Climbing evolves (I use that term carefully, rather than "progresses") BY appeal to what has come before.
IF a near-nude free-solo is "better" than the FA of the Nose, it is only possible because of rubber and shoes developed over time and based upon the NEEDS of people seeking that "higher standard" as a RESULT of what came before. As each generation contemplates the accomplishments of their elders, they keep asking the SAME question the elders asked: How do we push the edges of the envelope even further?
But "further" is meaningless without the context laid down by the elders. The Nose is what it is today BECAUSE of the boldness and vision of Harding. And that vision has been INCORPORATED into the "standards" of today. Our present "standards" would not have developed in a vacuum.
So, in every time-slice the idea that we should "hold off" until somebody can "put the thing up right" is just ridiculous, and that is BECAUSE "right" is perpetually a moving target.
Just so, the idea that some "standard" or another IS "the right" is the very basis of enforcement and the seed and root of it.
Vitaliy M. gave a description of a climb that fits all of our ideals of a first ascent, it is done in "the best style"
you disagree?
Yes! See above.
The biggest problem your putative definition has, Ed (seriously, with all due respect), is that it is logically predicated on some definition of "climbing" itself. There can be no "best style" of climbing, unless you can provide an objective definition of "climbing."
But that reveals the fundamental problem with your whole approach.
Has there been no "best style" FA of Cerro Torre? Everest? K2? El Cap? Half Dome?
And the list of such questions is literally endless!
So, to define "climbing" in such a way that almost ALL of climbing history is far, far below the "best style" you define, just means that you have foundered on the classic "ought implies can" principle.
Anything you OUGHT to do must be something that you CAN in principle do.
Let's say that I argue conclusively that you OUGHT to lift the Empire State building five times each day by yourself with your bare hands. You would immediately and correctly respond: "That is impossible, so it can't be something I ought to do." In short, you are saying: "That CANNOT be the standard because nobody can rise to that standard."
Ahh... you are thinking now: "But people CAN rise to the standard of my definition, because it HAS been done. Rarely, but it HAS been done."
Really? There HAVE been nude solo first ascents on K2, Cerro Torre, El Cap, Half Dome, etc., etc., etc.???
Sorry. Not once. Not ever. Nobody is even remotely contemplating such ascents, even with the "standards" of our present day!
So, you are effectively taking "the standard" of, say, bouldering and treating it as "the standard" for big walls and big mountains. And now the ridiculousness of "the standard" becomes blazingly apparent!
Your definition literally pushes "evaluations" to conclude that ascents of big walls and big mountains don't constitute "climbing" at all... so FAR they are from "the standard!"
But if these exemplars are not truly CLIMBING, then the "climbing" to which you apply your "standard" would not ever have emerged in the first place.
Rock climbing emerged as a crucible REFINEMENT of mountaineering, and bouldering, sport-climbing, etc. all emerged as yet more fine-grained crucible activities as refinements of rock climbing.
And thus the "wait for Lynn Hill" argument is revealed as entirely ludicrous. Lynn Hill NEEDED Harding's accomplishments (and I would expect that she would agree).
And what "climbing" IS cannot be captured by the sort of "objective" definition you are seeking! CLIMBING is made up of countless intangibles that concern subjective values and in-time contexts that are not laboratory-repeatable!
You can't discover the "physics of standards," like you appear to be seeking, Ed.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 20, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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if you could do the route without Red Pointing, wouldn't it be better?
Good question. But at times failing repeatedly could make it SOOO MUCH more sweater than getting the onsight. I was bouldering at the gym yesterday and onsighted one bouler problem, which was same grade as the other boulder problem that I had to work for several days to get. It was SUPER sweet to finally get it. So sweet I flew up to the ‘finish’ jug from the last hold I finally stuck. I think if one has access to a climbing area without a giant approach, redpointing is probably a lot more fun than onsighting a long route.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
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it will take me some time to read madbolter1's response, I've still got work to do today...
Dingus, I accept that you might have many reasons for doing a route in a particular style, but I maintain that we know what the "best style" is, and even though we might not choose this style, it remains a fixed point.
There may be many legitimate reasons, tradeoffs, but the idea of the "best style" remains the best style in all our feelings.
Oddly, being accused of a physicist's precision is interesting, because that initial statement is really very broad, and intuitive, but it captures the essence of climbing first ascents that all of us have experienced.
And that statement is a supposition. But one that I feel very safe in making.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jun 20, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
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Sucks to be next...
Interesting thoughts. Lower angle, stances available when viewed from below, perhaps an opportunity for protection when viewed from below...yeah, ground up, on sight...sign me up.
Steep, no stances, some loose rock, razor blades in pockets and cracks (ie limestone)...out of self preservation...top down clean, maybe addition of fixed pro. I usually don't suss out the moves too much on a pre-inspection, although, will fiddle about if I place a bolt to make sure it can be clipped comfy through a range of height and reach options.
Best first ascent style might be difference for steep, sport climbing. If you solo at a very high level, then, doing an "FA" per se, and, reporting it as such on terrain that's steep with no options for traditional gear...I guess that's good style at some level, but, also might take the route off the table as a nice sport route. Depends on point of view.
Hard to articulate, easy to ramble about for me.
Oh well...here's to unclimbed rock and new adventures, unclimbed or no!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jun 20, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
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Dingus, I accept that you might have many reasons for doing a route in a particular style, but I maintain that we know what the "best style" is, and even though we might not choose this style, it remains a fixed point.
There may be many legitimate reasons, tradeoffs, but the idea of the "best style" remains the best style in all our feelings.
Fixed point? In this context, there is so much contingency of value that a fixed point would be impossible without consensus, agreed to freely.
Perchance are you trying to create consensus, or identify the principles around which consensus should be obvious? Either would difficult, even for reasonable minds that were interested in the topic to begin with.
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whitemeat
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
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Ground up... FA of salethe seemed legit...
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jun 20, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
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The problem with a "Fixed Point" is that Climbing ethics have evolved over time. What came before this Point and what happens after said Point is part of this process. The one thing that I've noticed in over 42years of Cimbing is, nothing is true, therefor everything is permissible.
As you have stated Ed, this is an old debate, from a bunch of Old Guys. . .
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Jun 20, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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Oppenheimer's statement is beautiful, complex, and thought provoking. It is no surprise that Ed would post it as a position statement for what he believes to be the ideal of style. No surprise either that Steve Grossman first posted it on ST.
I do think there has been a muddling of ethics and style. To clear things up, I hope, are the definitions we are working with for each.
Ethics
the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group
Style
a way of behaving or approaching a situation that is characteristic of or favored by a particular person.
Style is a personal issue. It concerns what we do in terms of what validates our values and makes us feel good.
Ethics guide our conduct to be beneficial to ourselves and others.
First ascents have both aspects. The style of a first ascent refers to the expression of vision, will, and ability of the climber making the first ascent. The ethic of a first ascent has to do with it's benefit to the individual and the group (climbing community).
The sticking point here in climbing discussions is the ethics of climbing resource impact. Here is where the community is split. Some in our group value a wilderness "leave no trace" ethic and some don't.
When no one can tell I was ever there I have satisfied my personal climbing ethic and I have contributed to a group ethic of supporting others to use the same resource into the future. That ethic also shows respect for other user groups to also respectfully enjoy our common natural resources.
Melissa's submission of Olmstead's quote concerning a wilderness resource preservation ethic is brilliant. It is also authoritative and proves that particular ethic has history. It is so good I have to include part of it here for all of us to ponder....
...in permitting the sacrifice of anything that would be of the slightest value to future visitors to the convenience, bad taste, playfulness, carelessness, or wanton destructiveness of present visitors, we probably yield in each case the interest of uncounted millions to the selfishness of a few individuals.
drljefe posits a more effective way of addressing the ethics issue, IMHO.
For me, "best" and "style" just can't reasonably go together, no matter how badly we'd like them to. Whether it's climbing, fashion, or surfing.
Just too subjective.
But since we're talking climbing, I'd agree with you Ed if "best" was replaced with "lowest impact" and "style" with "method".
For me lowest impact is preferable.
Ed, I don't envy you for starting this discussion!!!
Edit
The "style" of FA is the least of my worries right now...
I've got nanometers to worry about! And where the last few bolts should go, hand drilled on rap, of course!
drljefe has proposed that reasonable lowest impact is a viable standard for our climbing ethic.
Here are some issues concerning ethics taken from previous posts.
Convenience bolts at belay stations
When did many belays get fixed in mostly tradtional area? At Devils Tower and many other "trad araes" belays are fixed on crack routes
mike m has a good point IMHO (it pisses me off, too, mike!).
Bolted rappel routes
did you object to the rap route down Royal Arches?
Couch master has raised a solid question here. This is solely an issue of convenience superceding the ethic of minimizing impact.
Power Drill Bolting
This was alluded to by drljefe. Here's my rant - power drilling bolts is too easy (not easy, just too easy). Drilling bolts should be hard, bitter, distasteful labor because it makes the deed self-limiting. You'll think long and hard about its worth before drilling that bolt and you'll have time to consider the deed before your ego gets you to do it blindly.
Below is some stuff I'd posted elsewhere and seemed appropriate here.
On ethics and style.
I was speaking to the lack of wilderness and environmental ethics that we as a group tend to have. I still stand on the idea that chalk, tape wads, rap sling nests, bolt stations on long climbs where natural anchors are available, bolting routes that could be top roped, packing another bolt line between all the others, and bolting next to lines that take natural gear is lousy outdoor ethics. We could stand to clean our house.
Style is a different thing altogether. That other stuff about my personal preference to gear just lines up with my preference for single speed bikes, long bows, open oar locks when rafting, hand tools, and generally choosing the simpler technology. I just feel more connected. Just a personal preference. That doesn't mean I'm taking hexes to Indian Creek!
I find inspiration too when I limit my tools to expand my experience. It also inspires when I see others do it. I innately respect their artful and internal pursuit of climbing. Think Jim Erickson not returning to a climb he'd fallen on, Henry Barber pulling the ropes between attempts on a pitch, or the high and, hopefully, internally driven art of free soloing. It's cool when people raise the bar and inspires me even when the bar is too high for me cause it gets me to raise my personal bar.
On style only.
In hunting, the tools you use will show how skilled a hunter you are. Use a long range rifle with a high powered scope may bag you a buck, but if you're good you can do it with a muzzle loader. If you're really good, you can do it with a compound bow. if youre better, you can do it with a longbow, and if you're really a badass you can jump out of a tree with a Bowie knife and get it done.
Having less technology between us and the experience forces us to be more skilled, more trained, and more conscious. So much of what we do in climbing has become just another consumer culture sport where all that matters is who has the bigger.....numbers. It doesn't matter how hard you climb. It matters what you experience and who you become from doing it, IMHO. If you do a given climb racked to the nines with all the modern gizmos and chalked to the elbows, that's cool. If you do the same climb in a two inch swami and a rack of old hexes sans chalk, that's really cool.
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