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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
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Yes I agree.
I have edited my op.
I ment in ADDITION to all of your current safety precautions, this holding the rope, under Some circumstances will be good.
Do not use this in lieu of communication, planning, etc. Don't change anything you already do. There are certainly times when this is not appropriate. But if you find yourself in a situation where you are feeling unsure of weather or not your belayer has you, this is a simple last step.
Again, thanks for the discussion. Sorry for any confusion.
Wes
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Apr 27, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
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I'm still confused as to how this adds any extra safety if you're simply clipped into the anchor first (which takes the same amount of time as reaching out to grab the rope with your hand) and waiting for the belayer to take you tight before lowering?
Are people teaching their partners to start lowering immediately without taking the leader tight first? That's the only variable I can see that would lead to this sort of thinking.
A proper belayed lower should consist of two parts: Part 1 where the belayer takes up all the slack until they feel the weight of the leader and Part 2 where they then lower the leader after calling "ready to lower?" At this point you know you're going to be held because you can feel them holding you and can then take your clip off the anchor while still being held in place by the belayer.
I can't think of a scenario where you're choosing to lower and would need any other variation on this technique.
this is a simple last step. My problem is that if you need this step, it means that you've already disregarded the minimum safety steps required while at the anchor.
from your new edit:
If your belayer is pulling you up to the anchor a bit don't do it. why would you ever think to start lowering before they have you pulling to anchor since this should happen every single time before you lower?
It is easier and faster and safer to just grab the rope going down to your belayer and lower yourself until the slack is out of the system and your belayer has you. Easier? Yes.
Faster? Yes.
Safer? This is NEVER safer than waiting a few seconds while still clipped to the anchor. And if it takes more than a few seconds, it's probably because they're not ready or there's an issue so being clipped to the anchor is preferable and safer while things are sorted out rather than holding the other side of the rope with a free hand while things are sorted out.
Sorry to harp on this, but my main issue with this thread is that this technique in the hands and head of a gumby climber can lead them into thinking over time that a hand on the other side of the rope is "good enough" and will forgo the obvious and safer sling/biner clip into the anchor.
Many of us have seen that dangerous point in a climber's growth where they feel comfortable with all of the aspects of overkill safety that everyone starts with and begins to look for tricks and shortcuts to move faster and climb more. If one understands the general ideas of safety then this process tends to go well, but many newer climbers follow all of the overkill safety techniques blindly in the beginning of their climbing career without thinking about why each step is there. For those climbers, once they start to find new tricks and shortcuts, the likelihood of things going horribly wrong goes through the roof.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 27, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
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I'll expound on what Magic Ed said a while ago
What you said:
He at first thinks he will rap and has his belayer take him off. In the middle of it all he thinks to himself....... So when he is done feeding the chains he yells down On belay? He thinks he is back on belay for some reason. BINGO
Agree on a descent plan BEFORE you start up. Don't change the plan unless there's a really really good reason to change.
Communicate clearly and make sure it's understood at both ends.
I can be a pain on this. I've been in situations where several climbers are sharing a route/top rope (usually ice climbing). Whether climbing or belaying I always discuss the descending protocol with each partner.
What a lot of newer climbers don't know is that rappelling errors is the primary cause of dead climbers. Check out the Accidents in North American Mountaineering 2012 and 2013
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
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Kevin-Good points. All noted.
For sure this is not the safest. Nor is this something I "teach" to noobs, thus the 'guilt' in my op. It is just another thing I use to keep me from falling to the deck when I think I am on belay.
Since I posted this more people have chimed in that this holding the rope has helped them avoid possible issues too.
I agree that it doesn't make sense to pile on another seemingly silly safety thing.
Let me ask you then, why would six experienced climbers (3-belayers & 3-leaders) just let this happen? Why would 3-climbers just jump or let themselves fall to the ground? Also why would their partners let that happen?
This is my point. These guys were doing everything the correct way, IN THEIR MINDS. Just like everybody who hasn't fallen been dropped in this situation. Everyone means you, all of you and me as well. Then they made a mistake. What makes you think you won't ever make that mistake? We all make mistakes. Everyday mistakes are made that cost people their lives.
Just another tool in the tool box. I have a sh*t load of tools I don't use, but at least I have them.
:)
Thanks
Wes
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Apr 28, 2014 - 12:51am PT
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I like your approach Wes.
When there's a bulge of rock between you and the belayer, or when the wind carries your instructions out of ear shot, your approach becomes quite critical.
Descent plans and stuff can be crystal-clear invaluable. Though you sometimes just have to call an audible - perhaps the anchor you 'planned to use' is in shite state and can't be used. Or you can't reach the 'planned' high point and need to back-off sooner. Or perhaps you need to keep going beyond the 'planned' high point for this reason or that.
For these reasons, it sometimes becomes a challenge to know when the climbers is ready to descend by the 'plan', and thereby when the belayer is/should be ready to lower.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2014 - 01:01am PT
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many newer climbers follow all of the overkill safety techniques blindly in the beginning of their climbing
career without thinking about why each step is there.
It's normal. They're beginners with no experience.
A good pro will let em make mistakes without killing them.
They learn much better that way then all this blabbing people do.
How is that done?
Only a good pro knows how so don't imitate .......
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