Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
JerryA
Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
|
It's time to skip the icefall by using cargo type helicopters to carry all supplies & people from the Base Camp to a forward camp above it. The film showing Goran Kroop soloing the Icefall in 1996 is among the most interesting Everest coverage I've ever seen . He was the only person climbing it alone that I've ever heard about.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
|
For ambitious people the desire to climb “the highest mountain in the world” creates an opening for other people to provide a “service” to take them there. Guided climbing is not as large a part of the US climbing experience as it has been in Europe, and I think that it is a bit difficult, but not impossible, to imagine paying a guide to take us up a route we’d like to do but are not capable of doing ourselves, usually because we lack the necessary experience of the location, the routes, the style of climbing, and the myriad of factors that a local would possess.
Who hasn’t thoroughly enjoyed going to a new place and climbing with a local? All the difficulties of learning what and where and how vanish and you truly get to “know” the place without having to “pay your dues.” It isn’t so difficult to take incrementally up to climbing Everest.
But along the way you abdicate bits of responsibility… until you can no longer even claim to be a “climber” in the sense that most of us recognize that title, in particular, the sense that you are an equal partner on the rope with equal responsibilities to the other partners.
Krakauer summarized this in his rather tortured In Thin Air, the account of the 1996 failures on Everest in this passage, discussing Andy Hall, the lead guide of one of the teams that fateful season:
“…and if his regulator was on the fritz and not delivering oxygen to his mask, that would also explain Andy’s apparent lack of lucidity.
This possibility—which now seems so self-evident—didn’t occur to either Mike or me at the time, however. In hindsight, Andy was acting irrationally and had plainly slipped well beyond routine hypoxia, but I was so mentally impeded myself that it simply didn’t register.
My inability to discern the obvious was exacerbated to some degree by the guide-client protocol. Andy and I were very similar in terms of physical ability and technical expertise; had we been climbing together in a nonguided situation as equal partners, it’s inconceivable to me that I would have neglected to recognize his plight. But on this expedition he had been cast in the role of invincible guide, there to look after me and the other clients; we had been specifically indoctrinated not to question our guides’ judgement. The thought never entered my crippled mind that Andy might in fact be in terrible straits—that a guide might urgently need help from me.”
Hall dies on the mountain.
In that sense, we see similarities to the hierarchy of a ship at sea where the Captain has absolute authority, even to the extent of executing capital punishment on the crew. This seems justified by the consequence that failure to perform your duty endangers the ship, and the entire crew. And the crew, in this metaphor, are the legions of Sherpa that enable the climbs. It should also be remembered that in the Victorian days of climbing in the Alps, there were guides and also porters who were locals, and very low in the hierarchy, but who also entered into the “danger zone,” all under the leadership of the guides.
But it isn’t the wealth and the privilege of the guided clients that distinguishes this activity from climbing, it is the idea that these clients have taken on no responsibility at all in the adventure, that lack of responsibility seems so foreign to a climber.
This abdication of responsibility extends to the death of the Sherpa who prepare the routes, supply the camps, and aid the clients on their climb. The system of guided climbs provides a means for those clients to absolve themselves of any complicity in the tragedy.
From my standpoint as a climber, this willingness to shed those responsibilities is beyond unconscionable; it is antithetical to my understanding of what climbing is.
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
|
I can only comment in the context of my time there, mid eighties to mid nineties. As was said upthread the Bass/Breashears/Ang Phurba sherpa trip in '84 did sort of start this genre of guiding on 8000m peaks. But the change was slow. Everest and other 8000m peaks were still relatively inexpensive. Climbers at the time could still chip in, get a permit, buy a plane ticket and go. Not much different than getting together to go to AK, SA or Europe. And in fact, putting together most of the kit on the streets of Kathmandu once you hired a few sherpas or an agency to sort through the third world maze of pre exped leg work. This included making sure the few 'climbing' sherpas had gear. Most did not. And then they were taught to use it. We, the round eye climbing members did the fixing, not the sherpas. Only once the route was established by the exped members , were the sherpas allowed to jug the lines on their own or in sherpa groups. And even then a member was not far behind to make sure things were as safe as could be.
It has been a long time since I have been there but that is what I saw. So things have changed significantly. And though the sherpas are making more money and gaining more experience, and carrying more responsibilty, it seems that they are now, more then ever, cannon fodder to launch the clients up the hill. Do the scut work until the 'guides' take over on the summit push. Really just another necessary line item in the massive 8000m peak budgets like O's. We always used to regard them as respected members of the team, with incredible strength and good nature but with absolutely no decision making. The only decsion making was within the sherpa group it self with the sirdar having final word, and liasing with the exped members for direction. Yowza, have things changed. Expeds were ugly extravaganzas back then but still climbing trips. Now it seem all business with the sherpa getting hosed.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
|
I know a person who paid to be guided up Everest. At one point on the route his guide said, "We need to rappel. Where is your device?"
"Device?"
"Rappel?"
That was the point where, according to this person, he realized that maybe he shouldn't be there.
My point is that people who get guided up Everest may have very little experience climbing. They may not understand let alone feel responsible for what the Sherpas do.
On the other hand, this person who did not know how to rappel had a very good experience, has continued climbing, has been back to Nepal, and is not the kind who considers his climbs as badges of merit or some such. He really digs the mountains and the rocks for the experiences they offer. He would never go back to Everest, he says, but admits that the pull is hard to resist even though the sensible part of his mind is appalled by the craziness.
|
|
JerryA
Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
|
In one of the finest mountaineering books ,"Everest The West Ridge " ( Sierra Club-Ballantine Book,1966 ), Tom Hornbein writes about the death of Jake Breitenbach in the Icefall on March 23,1963. Those days are long gone.& still traversing the Icefall on foot doesn't make any sense when there is an alternative. I can not think of any amount that is worth that risk. Playing roulette with hired peoples lives isn't climbing by "fair means".
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
|
the clients are peak baggers who want to be the second person around the water cooler in some corporate office building who can brag about standing on the highest place on earth
I doubt that, Jim, I suspect most of these people have their Evian brought
to their offices by their PA's.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
|
Simone Moro has this to say:
…………climbing on Mount Everest will recommence. Hopefully with far more awareness of what risks and dangers in the mountains really mean. Everyone always tells me 'Everest is nothing special, simple, a walk in the park.' But every year I've witnessed people lose their lives on that mountain and nobody, not even the Sherpa, reach the summit without putting in some considerable effort. The very same effort that was being made yesterday by those people, expert guides, within the Icefall. They were doing their job, exactly like those who in August climb up the Normal route on Mont Blanc or the Matterhorn. Guides and clients have existed for two hundred years and now though what is certainly needed is time to stop and think wisely, without being hypocritical, in an effort to render things as safe as possible for everyone. But this can't be obtained with blanket bans or rash, fundamentalist judgments.
http://www.explorersweb.com/offsite/?source=http%3A%2F%2Fgripped.com%2Fnews%2Fanother-body-recovered-everest%2F&lang=en
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
|
And some more monetary figures.
The mandated amount of life insurance for Sherpas is now one million ruppees, which equates to about $10,300 at current rates. In addition the Nepalese government is giving each family $ 414 and a private insurance company in Kathmandu is chipping in $ 515 for each. So far, a Sherpa's life is currently worth $10,929.
Let us hope that western contributors can considerably raise that amount.
|
|
Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
|
Though by no means disputing any of your considered thoughts Jan, rather, appreciating your lived and informed understanding. Might you know what the profit margin is per client, for the range of Western guide companies?
Might you know what the cost would be for increasing the insurance for Sherpa and Sherpani guides to a more respecatble amount?
I've fed at Woody's place in Twizel - it's a humble home. Cotter lives in Wanaka, in a lovely house but nothing exuberant. Russ Brice does own some charming property in Chamonix, that incone also coming from local guiding too. Are the Western companies make a huge bundle of cash out of this? Have they capacity to pay for increased insurance premiums, or should we really only allow guiding, thereby, that completely avoids the ice fall?
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
|
In one of the finest mountaineering books ,"Everest The West Ridge " ( Sierra Club-Ballantine Book,1966 ), Tom Hornbein writes about the death of Jake Breitenbach in the Icefall on March 23,1963. Those days are long gone.& still traversing the Icefall on foot doesn't make any sense when there is an alternative. I can not think of any amount that is worth that risk. Playing roulette with hired peoples lives isn't climbing by "fair mean
The Khumbu is an idiots game. Even for Sherpa's who hope to live a little better and support their families.
It is a sh#t route with no technical merit other than endurance.
There is nothing worthwhile to be gained on this route. All anyone who climbs it gains from me is derision.
Derision on multiple levels.
1. I spit on you for devaluing the worth of your life and the lives of those you climb with.
2. I spit on you for valuing money more than all the important things in life.
3 I spit on you for valuing reputation among idiots over the worthwhile things of life.
4. I spit on you for having allowing an idiotic dream drive you to be so stupid
R.I.P. Dipshits
I am so tired of this bullsh#t.. it's time for the real alpinism community to stand up and clearly state that Everest by these means is no accomplishment and is only for fools.
Same for the Abruzzi ridge on K2 although it has slighty more technical merit. Not that much though.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
|
It will be interesting to see if the Nepalese government now mandates higher insurance rates to cover the climbers. Of course those rates are bound to go up after this disaster. How much it would cost to add insurance, I don't know, but if it added a thousand dollars or two to the cost of climbing Everest, I'm pretty sure people would pay it.
The Nepalese government gave something like 324 permits to climb Everest this year. If each of those permit holders paid another thousand, the 16 who died would get something like double what they are getting now if it were divided evenly. Of course insurance is more complicated than that and they might get more based on the payments and the much lower mortality in most years.
|
|
sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
|
Who the hell would want to slog past corpses, sh#t piles and oxygen tanks?
What is the fun in that anyways?
|
|
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
|
very clear that there were just three significant ascents of Everest:
1. Hillary/Tenzing in '53
2. Hornbein/Unsoled in '63 via the West Ridge
3. Loretan/Troillet in '86 from the North
anything after '86 is parody; worse -- status-seeking for its own sake
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
|
I'd give Mesner and Habler their due also
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
|
So another year rolls around, and I find another thread that embodies a lot of westerners pontificating upon what Sherpa should do, how they should think, how they should do business, how they should live.
As if the tragedy is not enough.
Just as an example, the concept of life insurance must be an amazing foreign concept. They have lived within their culture without it for thousands of years. They must have a cultural method of dealing with survivors, but that is just too savage for us Westerners to contemplate. I'm not arguing against insurance. I'm arguing that it is another imposition of western culture upon those seen as "lesser".
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
|
Ken M. I'm curious how the whole "insurance" thing works/could work. Not for some lesser being but a brother human. Not sure why you're projecting "dick like behavior" on some who are genuinely interested in helping. No, I'm not a fan at all of the merit badge corporate climbing culture invading Everest.
But as others have said, this is a big part of the Nepalese tourism economy. Any reason why it shouldn't be taxing westerners appropriately and handling that tax well?
$.02,
pc
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
|
very clear that there were just three significant ascents of Everest:
Didn't the taco's own Stuart Johnson put several fa's up the backside of Everest?
I'd say those are of note..
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
|
There are many great ascents of Everest. Still many amazing possibilities on that mountain.
But none of them involve guides, or hiring sherpas to fix lines or carry supplies past base camp and none of them involve the khumbu icefall.
The last time I can think of a significant ascent via the khumbu was Mesner's solo. He almost died in a crevasse then. I could be wrong as I'm not sure all the routes accessible after the icefall. But that icefall puts a major idiot asterisk on any modern ascent involving it.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Apr 19, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
|
Talk about projecting western culture on Sherpas! It is ours who often treated orphans savagely not theirs. I guess ours is so far from the extended family concept now that we can't even imagine cousins helping each other? And there were always the Buddhist monastaries as a fall back also.
However, in the modern world, where the Sherpa economy operates on cash not barter, money is needed. We live in a globalized culture and economy now.
In fact the Sherpas were never isolated. That is part of their success. They supplemented their farming income with trade and routinely traveled widely in Tibet, Nepal, and even India, as part of their traditional culture. Thus they have always been more adaptable than others in that part of the world.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!