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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
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Holy hijack, Batman! Didn't H. Knott mean that Lost Arrow = Crowley? That's what I assumed he meant.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
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Mimi: "Of course we can agree to disagree, but don't expect everyone to roll over and let these guys whitewash the truth."
More of the same, Mimi. The "truth", at least the only truth that matters, is still there written in the stone waiting for anyone who cares enough to go read it firsthand. Everything else is about other delicate cultural sensibilities which have little or nothing to do with climbers and steel on stone.
Part of my "appreciation for old school ethics and style" was an attempt to put up a new route whenever we hit a new area. We didn't check in with the locals, ask for beta, consult guide books - we just showed up, eyeballed stone and went for whatever caught our eye as best we could. I consider such behaviour, regardless of the epics that can ensue, to be the very essence of old school style.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 29, 2007 - 07:40pm PT
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You boys (rcmp & HK) get a room and leave us out of it.
I am not sure what Mimi's argument against these guys is, beyond not liking them; maybe she will fill us in?
Mimi and I, and a host of others here, were there, during the WOS operation. It Did look truly weird then, I'm glad for all this discourse; even though it does get recursive, stuff comes out. It will be interesting to hear what the SA party says, as it has been fascinating to hear from those that attempted it.
In the semi long term, it doesn't look like this led to large scale slab/grid-bolting by n00bs, or other catastrophies once feared.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 29, 2007 - 08:09pm PT
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LEB, the logical conclusion is not as you say. You can't get the analogy you need between (let's call it) "backpacking" and big wall climbing.
There is nothing about the activity of backpacking that demands by its very nature that one destroy trees and litter. However, big wall climbing, by its very nature, demands some measure of "rock destruction." The inherently necessary nature of the "destruction" in the two activities is what the needed analogy hinges on. Even placing a cam and wiggling it back and forth to "seat" it among some crumbly crystals is "rock destruction," which is to say that "rock destruction" happens at at least a microscopic level due to the very nature of climbing. Rock climbing demands by its very nature SOME amount of rock destruction, while by its very nature backpacking does NOT demand woodcutting and littering.
To sharpen the point, your analogy breaks down at the very level you most need it to hold up: the only way you can keep the analogy to hold up is for you to admit that the "destruction" involved in backpacking is also a matter of scale that is inherent in the very act of backpacking: walking itself causes damage, etc. But to get the analogy to hold up in this way eliminates its value to your argument.
If the SCALE of destruction is the issue in both activities, then it certainly does NOT follow that because people backpack in the most environmentally-friendly way possible, that just puts them on the slippery slope toward the woodcutters of yore! By the same token, the microscopic amounts of rock that Mark and I "destroyed" on WoS does NOT put one on the slippery slope toward wild hammer-flailing at every bit of rock within reach!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 29, 2007 - 08:42pm PT
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LEB, I agree with you that conservation really matters, and it is only a long history of climbing in Yosemite that has worked in our favor as climbers.
I don't think I missed the point of your analogy. I just don't agree that your analogy MAKES the point of conservation that you say. My response is that "conservation" in the sense your analogy needs is inherently impossible in climbing. Thus, "being concerned about conservation" at the level that mimisoft appears to be is not sustained by your analogy.
Because rock "destruction" is unavoidable in the process of climbing, the entire issue here IS a matter of scale. On the following thread, this issue is taken up, and we await mimisoft's response:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=236000&tn=60#msg508043
I find the discussion of scale worthwhile in its own right, and it is refreshing to at least be talking about facts rather than slanders and speculations. My only point regarding WoS in this context is that the total amount of rock "destruction" we engaged in pales by comparison to the amount of rock "destruction" caused by merely "seating" a single cam or placing and removing a single piton.
Here I merely remind mimisoft of the history: first the route was a bolt ladder, then the route was a rivet ladder, then the route was "heavily drilled," then the route was "enhanced," then the route was (and this is the actual fact of the matter) unnoticeably "enhanced" on a few flakes (that have probably long since dropped off due to natural erosion), and finally the "debate" comes down to whether or not you happen to find it appealing/enjoyable/interesting to climb a route that requires you to scrutinize the rock at an almost microscopic level to make upward progress. I realize that such scrutiny is not everybody's cup of tea, but that matter of preference is nothing worth debating about.
The only remaining debate should be carried forward on the previously mentioned thread, since until mimisoft rises to that challenge, there is really nothing else to talk about.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2007 - 08:46pm PT
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LEB, take my word for it - in this discussion you're completely out of your element and league relative to the requisite domain expertise necessary to comment meaningfully on the technical aspects of the discussion. You should either sit this one out or consider restricting your comments to the personality conflicts as your attempts to comment on the technical merits are basically no where in the vacinity of a target despite your good intentions. In short, if you were placed on the route with your face three feet from the rock in front of one of the 'enhancements' in question you likely wouldn't be able to discern any of them.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Dec 29, 2007 - 08:59pm PT
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HJE wrote
"Part of my "appreciation for old school ethics and style" was an attempt to put up a new route whenever we hit a new area. We didn't check in with the locals, ask for beta, consult guide books - we just showed up, eyeballed stone and went for whatever caught our eye as best we could. I consider such behaviour, regardless of the epics that can ensue, to be the very essence of old school style."
This is hard to argue with, but a similar argument is going on over Laurel Knob in NC these days, with equal vigor and venom.
Lois, you have stepped into one of the steaming cowpies of climbing here. Back up, scrape off you shoe, hold your nose, and go another way, haha!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 29, 2007 - 09:33pm PT
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"Steaming" is right. I don't think there is a way to really describe this event and it's nuances to a non-climber in post-space.
I don't think it really affected non climbers, except for providing a new place to point binoculars for six weeks, 25 yrs ago.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 29, 2007 - 09:41pm PT
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loisification of a WoS thread?
jesus chingando christo!
now i really have seen it all....
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Dec 29, 2007 - 09:45pm PT
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hahaha yeah
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Dec 29, 2007 - 10:12pm PT
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 29, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
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If anyone can make sense out of the nightmare and travesty that was Wings of Steel it is Lois. She is in the perfect position to determine who the boobs are.
Juan
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2007 - 10:27pm PT
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Rules on aid climbing? LOL
They make em up as they go. Remember the the copperhead Bridwell placed on Half Dome on a blank wall, hahaha.
Blew Klaus's mind while he watched from below ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
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From Living in Yosemite almost 30 years, it's my experience that insider's get treated differently than outsiders. There may actually be some merit in that, but it's true that it's possible to get a raw deal as an outsider.
Seems crazy to me that folks who don't raise an eyebrow about cleaning out a head placement or garden a crack for nailing, or even a bathook or trenched head, would get uptight about minor improvement to a hook placement.
If any route gets many ascents, it seems like a matter of time before hook placements get enhanced.
What's the real beef? Ain't none. Valley elitists made a mistake using double standards. Human Nature at work.
Peace
Karl
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2007 - 11:37pm PT
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Loisification of Wings of Steel! Oh the ignominy!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 29, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
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Pissing and pooping as a means of settling disputes is phylogenically inappropriate in the context of human conflict. It IS the method of choice for my cats when settling disputes in the laundry room BUT there is/was probably more effective ways working through issues involved in this particular controversy
Given that the "phylogenically appropriate" way of settling human conflict is mass murder (whether by stone club or AK-47 or Atomic Bomb), you're probably right that pissing and pooping is inappropriate.
D
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2007 - 12:19am PT
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Lois, you keep driving further from the target and the topic's relavancy with each succeeding post. Again, I know you have good intentions, but really, you should real desist at this point. Again, the 'chipping' in question you likely wouldn't be able to discern right in front of your face - even with a magnifying glass. For this [climbing] outsider, once the facts were verified by experienced climbers of good standing in the community, my view is the dispute is far more a conflict of culture and style than ethics and any inordinate physical damage of any kind.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 30, 2007 - 12:28am PT
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Yosemite - Valley of the Cats!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Dec 30, 2007 - 01:38am PT
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I want that T-shirt in cintune's post.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:22am PT
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I was there. The hooking was desperate, the climbing bold and runout. Fifty-foot falls are a certainty, many of them. I saw no chipping or enhancements with my naked eye, even though I was looking for them. I did not use a magnifying glass. My vision is not as good as it used to be, and I am almost at the point where I'm thinking I might need reading glasses.
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