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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Putin did not start this. We did.
I tried not to comment on this but it is too rich for my willpower to fight.
Dude! This started with the Golden Horde! If yer gonna blame anybody
those bad boys are your perps! They upset everybody's apple carts thereabouts
and things have been a mess ever since.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Riley, why do you think McCain was there in December? And the meeting between Nuland and the Ukranian Ambassador last month?
We have an immediate hand in instigating this. We should be working WITH Russia to counter China, not pissing them off.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Putin clearly has his play in it, and I do not understand what it is. Is it just building "The Greater Russia"? Or may be it is his strategy of 'active defense' - protecting his interest inside Russia by attacking US interest elsewhere? He sure understands that if allowed Russia with it's wast resources will be swallowed by the 'US interest' of multinational corps in a blink.
I do sympathise with both Crimean and Ukrainian people and I do not see why Ukrainians should care for Crimea independence. They probably don't.
The acts of new installed Ukrainian government against Crimea are actually mirroring the acts of the overthrown government just days ago. A huge hypocrisy in my eyes.
BTW great climbing in Crimea - trad multipitch and short sport. A bit hot in the summer. The season is like in Red Rocks - spring and fall. In the early fall you can swim in the Black Sea after climbing. Lovely.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Putin is the biggest threat to the world peace
So far it was US the biggest threat to the world peace. By act, not by pretense.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Bluey, I have no idea why McCain was there and I doubt he did either. I
really doubt he was there at the behest of his president. McCain at this
point is mainly concerned with his image and legacy as a bit player. This
was destined to happen regardless of whatever words of encouragement the
Ukrainians may think we offered them.
Moosie, unless Obama has a stroke and goes all Churchill over this it
shouldn't be that big of a deal. We're gonna pretend to wail and gnash our
teeth but without a dog in the fight it is just for show. The Euros will do
the same but they don't dare jeopardize their precious Russian gas so in the
end they'll make nice and get back in the sandbox.
And Vlani is right in that this is all about Russian might and prestige,
something that has been sorely lacking ever since their Afghan debacle.
The Ukraine doesn't need the Crimean, little agriculture or industry, only
some descendants of the Horde and mostly Russians, so get over it. Of course
this wouldn't be the first time this little peninsula, good for only rock
climbing and sunburning fat bodies, has seen major warfare for no reason.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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I guess we can go back to calling them The Soviet Union again.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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If you imagine restoring Russia to it's pre-bolshevik borders it would include all of the Soviet Union as of 1990 minus a small territory near Baltic sea bordering Poland - the Eastern Prussia - and plus the whole of modern Finland and Poland. So before they consolidate all of that land they have no right to be called Russia, just Soviet Union?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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bluering posted We have an immediate hand in instigating this. We should be working WITH Russia to counter China, not pissing them off.
Doesn't this make you a blame America first Putin appeasist?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I'm not happy about this, as Putin clearly is a throwback to the old Soviet Union, in addition to an oligarch.
But some historical perspective...Crimea is majority Russian, and has been thought of as Russian for a long time. It being part of Ukraine only dates back to the Kruschev years.
As long as this stays within Crimea, sanctions are probably the correct response. Do we(or Nato) really want to risk war over this?
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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If Crimea votes for independence (very likely as they already did that in 1994) and Ukraine takes military action - what would be the correct NATO response? Bomb Kiev or bomb Moscow? Or both, just in case?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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vlani, we have enough trolls around here. You know that's not gonna happen.
The Ukraine is not going to fight Russia, period.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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What if Russia steps back? Will KIev take military action in Crimea? What should we do if it does? Support Kiev because it is anti-Russian or support Crimea independence because people voted for it?
That article about Ukrainian fascist is kinda scary. I did not know how bad that actually is.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
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Western leaders from President Barack Obama to Chancellor Angela Merkel are telling Russia not to violate Ukraine’s sovereignty. Vladimir Putin’s response as he prepares for military conflict: What about ours?
Putin has been warning the U.S. and other North Atlantic Treaty Organization states for at least six years not to impede Russian interests in Ukraine, particularly in Crimea, where the Black Sea Fleet has been based since its founding by Catherine the Great in 1783 after the Ottoman Empire ceded the peninsula.
Putin told a closed NATO summit in Romania in 2008 that the military alliance was threatening Ukraine’s very existence by courting it as a member, according to a secret cable published by Wikileaks. Putin said Ukraine’s borders were “sewn together” after World War II and its claims to Crimea, which belonged to Russia until Nikita Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine in 1954, are legally dubious, Kurt Volker, the U.S. ambassador to NATO at the time, said in the cable.
Four months later, Putin demonstrated his willingness to back up words with actions by sending Russian troops to war against Georgia, another former Soviet state, over two Russian-speaking regions seeking independence.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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The Ukraine is not going to fight Russia, period.
I really hope so. The problem is that it is always the PEOPLE who get screwed when these political games are being played. What happened in Kiev was about people telling the corrupt government to f*#k off because everyone is sick of living in a shithole and see their country getting ripped off by those who are in charge. All the money donated from elsewhere is being divided bu those with huge mansions all over the world. Yanukovich is a f*#king criminal. And so is Tymoshenko. And so is that other clown that they call their president now.
In any case, I think Russia only put more fuel into the fire by cutting off Crimea from Ukraine and ordering the troops there to surrender. Russia says they are protecting Russians who live there, but from what? No one was getting hurt, and borders are opened. Really hope Ukrainian military is not gonna attack and really hope Putin is not thinking of putting his troops into Western Ukraine because I think the war will start for sure if that happens.
Coz, wtf do you want Obama to do? Nuke Russia? Being a from Ukraine and all, I really do not think USA needs to play global police every time. That's why majority of the world is sick of us. He stated his opinion, he urged Russia to remove their troops, and he will enforce economical measures that will hurt Russia. That pretty much is the limit. Russia is not attacking a country that is in the United Nations.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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vlani, Russian step back? Not bloody likely. We'll be the backsteppers.
If Putin moves in a big way it'll be a stampede for the exits as there ain't
diddly we could do. But other than some minor skirmishes the diplomats
will sort it out and Putin will come out on top because, in poker terms,
he is the bank, the house, and the dealer.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Americans are too damn stupid to understand WTF is going on.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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There is an interesting detail about Sebastopol itself, where the Russian fleet is based. In Soviet times, even as Crimea was a part of Soviet Ukraine, the city of Sebastopol was a part of Russia. It was given to Ukraine by Yeltsin in a rushed up agreement dissolving the Soviet Union. Yeltsin was obviously much more concerned of his own life than of the long-term consequences of that agreement.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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vlani, in english we say most treaties aren't worth the paper they are
written on. Just ask any Native American.
Oh, Dave Kos, tell yer 10 year old he better be ready for the Reti, capisce?
Or if I am Black then my Petrov will definitely take him more than two minutes.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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vlani posted If Crimea votes for independence (very likely as they already did that in 1994)
It's not likely because they did 20 years ago it's likely because a Putin installed gangster is acting as Prime Minister and literally everything in the country is surrounded by Russian military.
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WBraun
climber
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Just like the American gangsters all over the planet forcing "THEIR WAY" onto everyone .....
Fuking hypocrites !!!!
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