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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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May 17, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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What does RAD stand for?
Rapid Ascent and Descent
Isn't the idea to limit the rapid descent part?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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May 17, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
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Shunting is going to be a new descriptor, for various activities.
I think I just shunt my pants.
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Lasti
Trad climber
Budapest
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Sep 26, 2014 - 04:38am PT
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OK, OK, I tried it, but just to go for first-hand experience. I am happy with my current system. This one is - in my view - less useful for TR climbing and rappel than a traditional TR Solo system, but might be good for arborist/rope access etc. work where you would be jugging frequently.
It is not especially difficult to set up, not necessarily more gear than a traditional TR solo setup (i.e. two devices on a rope either way, only plus is the pulley).
What do you want from a RAD system?
Security - aspects:
1. slack in rope: though in theory the rope does self feed between pushes of the upper pulley/ascender and everything is nice and upright if you fall, in practice self feeding does need a bit of nudging, especially on cable-esque ropes.
2. rope damage: Again, in theory, if you fall your belay device will catch you, in practice this requires the rope to be tight (e.g. smoothly self feeding) and your tether to the ascender to be loose. This is difficult to achieve, hence if you fall, it is more likely than not going to be a ways (inches) onto your ascender. Ropes do not enjoy that.
Speed - aspects:
1. moving up - free climbing: this can be quick, if you get into the habit of pushing up the ascender with every move.
2. moving up - jugging: in my opinion the only added value of the whole rig is that jugging up the line is easy. Given, there are simpler and more efficient ways to do that. With this system, you can bust two or three free moves (well protected) and then jug a bit and free again with relative ease.
3. changeover to descent and descent: all you have to do is remove the ascender, given that the rope is tight in your GriGri, and down you go.
Ease of use:
1. UP:
This is where this particular RAD system is a bit lacking. Given the setup, if you want to fall on your GriGri and have it self feed, you have to move the ascender up every two, with freakishly long arms, three feet. This is not particularly amusing. As and added problem, pushing up the ascender against the weighted rope gets tiring by the top of the route.
2. Down: fine.
Verdict
Objectively, in a vacuum:
Safe and quick if you have the energy to push the ascender along every two feet. If a few - or many - jugging moves are to be expected, maybe even efficient as it makes that possible and still protects a few free moves in between.
Real world FREECLIMBING applications:
Pushing the ascender sucks. Period. Even on a staircase.
Not safer, even when used properly than other available, systems using backups (caveat: most other non-TR-solo-specific device using self feeding systems would have you caught by teethed devices, in theory this RAD system is better if the GriGri engages before the ascender, in practice, it rarely works perfectly).
Not quicker to change to descent than say a two rope, one MiniTrax one Grigri using system.
BOTTOM LINE:
Compared to other systems using a GriGri or similar device as one device, the only pro is the quick changeover to inefficient jugging.
The main con is pushing the ascender with the weighted rope every two or three feet, which can easily become a safety issue if you have to bust a move too many.
Their are easier to use systems that provide the same safety, same quick changeover to descent and are easier to use.
Lasti
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 26, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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Thought I'd put Petzls RADrig diagram up that Mickster is describing. This is a common way that some folks use this for ascent of ropes on the Captain (with a grigri) and lots of places in lieu of jugging with 2 ascenders. Would be a much better system for traversing jugging if you were following a pitch as well I would imagine. Note that Petzl diagrams using a D21a (AKA Rig), which is a $150 industrial device similar to a Gri Gri. I don't know what the differences are between the Rig and a Grigri, but would expect that there are some.
They appear to be suggesting that it is suitable for jugging a rope, can anyone find where Petzl suggests that this is a good way to toprope a climb? I suspect that they would not want anyone doing such.
Anyhoo, I'm with Werner on the teeth thing. Like probably everyone here, I've toproped with nothing but a Jumar and a backup knot, but there are better ways. The trick is to not take any kind of a fall with slack in between your jug or you could risk desheathing the rope.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Sep 26, 2014 - 11:27am PT
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I use the RAD rig for climbing photography (just a hobby). I set up just like I would for top rope solo: working line is static, and the safety is dynamic. I put the rig on my working line, and tie loops to clip a cowtail to the dynamic line.
Easy to move up or down the rope with a RAD, but it seems cumbersome for rope solo.
In fact, at times when I need to climb a bit, I just remove the ascender and pulley and use the grigri (and pull slack as needed) and continue clipping/reclipping backup loops on the safety line.
Bill
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2015 - 03:53pm PT
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Thank you, Lasti, for your testing and analysis, and thank you, couchmaster, for posting Petzl's RADrig diagram. Here's a photo of the RAD system that I've been using:
Notice that I use a Petzl Basic ascender instead of an Ascension, and a Grigri 2 instead of the industrial-strength Petzl RIG. The redirecting pulley is attached to the Basic's lower hole with a quick-link. The yellow sling is my tether to the Basic. The orange sling is an optional foot-loop that I keep on my harness in case I need it for ascending. I do not use a separate backup rope with this system.
With the free-end of the rope weighted, the Grigri 2 self-feeds as I climb, and locks-off if I fall. It is my primary self-belay device. The Basic serves as a secondary backup device. Since it has a toothed cam, I make certain to remove any slack if I'm going to risk falling. Fortunately, the Grigri has caught me every time (so far, knock on rock), and the Basic has never had to sink its teeth into my rope to arrest a fall.
For the record, I've experimented with Shunting (using a Petzl Shunt), Traxioning (with a Petzl Micro Traxion), and Cinching (using a Trango Cinch) as self-belay methods. I'll use only one device at a time on my low-stretch, fixed climbing rope. For backup, I'll clip into a series of alpine butterfly knots pre-tied on a dynamic rope that's attached to the same top-rope anchor.
I have to report that it is less of a hassle for me to self-belay with my RAD system, than it is to clip and unclip loops on a backup rope. YMMV with this RAD system, and I'm open to suggestions for improving it, short of using yet another belay device, ascender, progress-capture pulley, or encouraging me to go free-soloing instead.
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TheSoloClimber
Trad climber
Vancouver
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This is just me personally, and I know a lot of people who climb have vastly different comfort levels, but if I'm going to go through the effort of actually setting up a system for the purpose of TR soloing it, it's gotta be something that is worth the effort. IE, something that challenges me and I'm probably going to fall on it. Ergo, I'm not going to have extra effort to put into sliding an ascender.
If it's something that allows me to free up a hand for the purpose of moving my system every couple moves, chances are it's easy enough for me to do away with the rope and climb it in half the time it would take to set up a solo system anyways.
But that's just me.
However, when I'm climbing at or near my limit, I don't self-belay, period. I rely upon a trusted climbing partner to belay me when I'm going for it and am much more likely to fall. That way, I can forget about gear and devote my total attention to climbing.
What happens when it comes time to lead that pitch and gear becomes a very real issue? TR soloing with a completely hands free system on something that is at or beyond your limit may get you ready to go for the redpoint, without having to waste your partners time while you work out the moves on toprope.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Well a lot of very good posts went up since i started this response
, maybe it adds some thing, . . . Right, the point is climbing technology has moved on
+, It has always been a little like best taught in person and then the 1st rule of fight club,
used to?? apply now???
NOT SO MUCH !!
Do Not Try To Copy Anything You Might think You See Here.
Your On Your Own On This One > You Could Die!!
With the web any warning is silly, if you can learn via video, go for it.
If you recognive these items and how to build the system needed;
you are half way up or down a cliff,
but it is not rocket surgery !++
+++A Robot,was a tool of choice before the grigri
it can be configured to auto-block mod from rappel mod quickly.
The slide clamps the rope tight under body weight. It is a multi use device this is one that shows wear,
That and that ,
using language that sets a competitive & some-what dismissive tone
,
that was easy to mistake for arrogance, leaves me feeling a bit cold towards you,
To some , myself , any way, it appears that you are looking for a hi-five for getting it right.
where you clearly just took your test or whatever?? which you survived so. . . .Good On Ya'!!
the standard just a few years ago. . V
now it is this . . V .V .V
Some very sage 'long in the tooth' climbers responded to you in a less taciturn manner than WBraun.
Who is the top person to get rope work advice from !
You need to learn how to take advice,
We Can only Try to mentor,
you have to want to get
The message.
Did you really not notice how nice every one has tried to be, you should climb with others and learn from climbing with your peers. You might get to climb with a superior climber.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Mickster, I'm a bit confused - though I could well have missed something while reading through the thread...
You describe and illustrate a technique that climbers have used for decades to ascend a fixed rope. You then propose it as a top rope soloing technique, something that is clearly done much better by a shunt, gri gri, mini trax etc. Highly experienced climbers such as JimT have pointed this out to you but you seem to insist that your system is better. Just how/why is it better? Does it boil down solely to the quick change to descent mode (something that a gri gri on its own would do anyway)?
Serious/unloaded question, by the way, and apologies in advance if I've misunderstood something. Thanks.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2015 - 11:34pm PT
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jaaan, let me clear up a few misconceptions about my posts:
I am NOT promoting the RAD system as the best way to TR solo, or even as a "good" way to do it. I've simply put it out there as an alternative way to get in a lot of laps when climbing easier routes. I like that the change-over to rappel is so quick and easy. No need to reach the top anchor. This system works well for me when all I want to do is get some exercise… pumping rock. For "serious" TR-soloing, I employ other options.
The system I've described uses a Grigri, since lots of climbers seem to have one in their kit. As for the Soloist, they're not sold anymore, probably for good reason. Neither is the Ushba Ascender. Petzl gives the RAD system their blessing for vertical rope access work when it's used with the Rig, their Grigri on steroids. Petzl warns against using their Shunt for self-belay. The Micro Traxion seems to be safer than the Mini Traxion, but I'm just not comfortable using a toothed pulley as my primary device.
The problem with the Grigri as a self-belay device is that it doesn't self-tend when in its typical position hanging from one's belay loop. Redirecting the (weighted) free end of the rope through a pulley above it solves that problem. It feeds automatically when used in the RAD configuration. The Basic ascender serves only as a backup to arrest a fall in the very unlikely event that the Grigri fails to catch me.
Sure, pushing the ascender up the rope is a bother, and takes more effort the higher I climb, but I'm doing this for exercise. One rope, two devices, and I can climb, hang, ascend, and rappel to my heart's content. I'm just thinking outside the box here, and sharing something that I haven't seen posted anywhere else in SuperTopo. If this information benefits anyone, all the better. If not, so be it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2015 - 12:21am PT
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i.e.- have your backup knot tied nearby if you plan to take upside down falls...
Not just upside-down falls. My old partner who is incredibly strong, talented, and experienced with the soloist ended up taking a fall where he just went just horizontal and had the soloist fail resulting in broken ribs and elbow. YMMV.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2015 - 11:10am PT
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I'd like to express my sincere appreciation to the five people who actually provided well thought-out, relevant and coherent feedback on this particular ascending/descending system, and its possible adaptation to top-rope soloing on climbs that are well below one's limit.
As for all the off-topic posts saying "this is how to top-rope solo," or only saying, without further explanation, "there are better ways to do it," you apparently missed my point, which I've surely repeated ad nauseum. Just because you have an opinion about something doesn't mean it will be valued, especially when you're not accurately addressing the strengths and weaknesses of the specific system that was presented.
I simply don't know how to respond appropriately to anyone who brags about their free-soloing exploits or alludes to their expertise in lead soloing, when it has nothing to do with this topic. "Bully for you," perhaps? And, I confess that I am totally mystified by rambling posts that seem to be about how TR-soloing was done in the old days.
To those who don't like my attitude, or take issue with me on a personal level, all I can say is that I'm glad I've stirred things up, and thank you for playing.
Climb on!
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Mar 22, 2015 - 11:20am PT
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If you didn´t want our opinion then why did you post in the first place?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Mar 22, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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Lol! Exactly Jim...
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Brian More
climber
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
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I'm psyched to see this post, must have missed it in 2012. I've tried the mini-traxion method, and I got in trouble when I was gassed and wanted to get down. I wasn't able to unweight the device to attach a rappel device. After I thrashed around for a minute I think I went batman or something-fuzzy memory- and walked off the back . Anyway, after that I came up with the "F.A.R.T." system (Warren Harding acronym-wink wink). "Famously Asinine Ridiculous Theory". Seriously though: run an 11mm static line through some anchors, walk back down, tie one end to your harness with a figure eight. Run the tag end through the gri gri (the correct direction-ha), get on the climb, suck up the slack with your free hand as you ascend. No back up, but if you did whip (not really-ha) then even so the gri would catch you-right? Maybe a little slippage? I've used the "F.A.R.T." method for a while now and have yet to crater-my route selections are dyno free. Note: tried it on ice and the gri- gri doesn't like the wet rope. I'm ready for "slayage" but thought I should let you know that if it gets too bad I'm the poster formerly known as "Weld-it". Ha- Thanks!
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tripmind
Boulder climber
San Diego
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Too much expensive hardware for me to really care enough to try it.
I was thinking of a simpler method, perhaps a bit more dangerous.
The method would mean tying upwards of 4-8 inline figure 8 knots with a loop into a standard dynamic rope. The loops/knots should be placed about 5 feet apart, you would then walk to the top of the climb and very securely attach it to a SOLID anchor, 3 bomber attachment points mandatory.
Recommended using 7-9mm power cord to synch the normal double harness loops together so that fall forces would be on the intended part of the harness, after synching the loops close together, knot the cord with a figure 8 leaving a loop with a very solid knot to keep the cord tied together, that loop will then be your clip in point, and its intended to prevent cross-loading a carabiner. You could also use two cords for redundancy.
Simply put you will clip yourself into each loop as you climb. From here you would have several options for clipping in.
1. Each loop would have its own carabiner, you will remove one carabiner for each one you clip in as you climb
2. Use only two carabiners, one will stay clipped into your harness while you move the other carabiner to the next loop on the rope
3. Leave every carabiner and loop of rope clipped into your harness for extra redundancy
The main problem that this will permit is the lack of shock mitigation that having a belayer would normally provide.
I'm thinking if you could get your hands on an industrial size spring device, perhaps something similar to those large spring scales that were once used to weigh large chunks of meat on a large hanging scale during older times, they could provide some mitigation of shock loading to prevent short rope falls. I'm sure there is some sort of device still in use today in the industrial world that does just this and probably doesn't cost a ton.
Welp, that's my idea for a simple rope solo'ing method. Has anyone tried something similar? Would anyone think this idea to not be too crazy? I'd be willing to give it a shot on a relatively easy climb if anyone wanted to see it tested...
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 10, 2015 - 12:32am PT
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Tripmind
Yup!
Often clipped high and low. - Sometimes using locking or doubles 'biners, and completely separate points of pro. To hang - or not, but gives a third , at the ready - backup to the backups.
That is my redundant system, I have a pre tied dynamic rope with loops custom set at various points along the length of rope. for a specific project. Sometimes very tight ,small loops that 'lock' the 'biners' orientation
when I have had to I have fixed the rope with clip in points on both sides of the anchor point. This when for directional or something, overgrown or needing work, I leave that bit set with ( trickery ) any thing from prussic to the wall- hauler. ( if that makes any sense?)haha hay your mileage WILL vary!
Then,????
I can't tell from your post but - two independent lines anchored at the top.-
I am on a' semi-static' 'program' rope through the Gri" " also by adding weight to this line you creat a self feeding (ish) set up . Here the OP adds . . . . . .and there is nothing wrong with that.
Getting the climbing line weight rite - the amount of slack if it or the back-up are fixed. Has been key.
I am a big fan of both the Croll and the Shunt, and as I showed, for entertainment, and curiosity, the 'Robot ' which does an awesome job.
. . . . . . . . .. . . ..
After this thread some climbers that I had known for many years got the chopp TR rope soling,
The causes of the catastrophic failure were all user error, no one will ever know for sure, bees? A moment of incomprehensible lack of focus? Due to complacency?, no way to know hard to comprehend.
I have since substantially cut back on roped soloing and looked in to getting a modern device.
I have used the same soloing system for years and only once ever had the misfortune to fall slowly, thus sliding, not locking the Gri" " I was clipped in to loops low and slid off into space. That was on vertical to over hanging terrain though. Then to trolley or pull in to get back on the rock, requires the climber to be at risk of stock loading that protection, ( no 'dentil floss' draws) if they blow off short directly onto the backup looped line so it is key that dynamic webbing or climbing rope is used. . . . . . .
back from re reading your post.
CHEST HARNESS! I was also able to go with out and in a pinch use an over the shoulder noose! Ha ha, any way it sounds like you have it right.
But you should never trust any information that you see on the Internet, it is worth being shown how to use the newest and best technology available by a person who knows what they are doing , and then, doing it in front of that person on a third top rope with a standard belay.
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