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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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6. Is Camp 4 really the hell hole as Long portrays in his book? If so, why, then, does the NPS permit it to go in that matter? Their motto is regulate everything possible; why not Camp 4? It sounds like Calcutta west or else one of the circles of Dante's inferno.
When I heard that "Friends of Yosemite" were attempting to make Camp 4 a "national historic location" I had to swallow really hard... it needed to be saved, but it seemed that what was most important was to have a place for the ghosts to be... like a broken down ramshakle mansion with busted out windows and spider webs hanging in all the corners.
It is really an abode where the past stays. When you wake up there after everyone is asleep and the wind is blowing through the pines, maybe you hear the falls booming in the spring, or a rockfall in the quiet autum, you can imagine that time has lost its direction and everyone who ever stayed is there with you, looking up past the trees into the same stary night sky, smelling the scent of the firs, thinking that this is the most wonderful place in the universe. Then rolling over and convincing yourself that tomorrow needs you to sleep right now as you drift back, eyes closed.
But it is a place which does not present its most flattering face in the harsh daylight...
ah, wilderness...
crushing humanity...
nothing like staying with a couple of hundred of your closest friends...
daring feats of agility...
don't forget to use the bear boxes!
did I forget to mention that there is music all the time (sort of music...)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Pretty close, Lois, though I don't think I can explain some of the logic gaps.
"Didn't get off the ground," = didn't go very far, up.
I have climbed half dome, several times. Most notably in a day with a partner who can't talk about it now, though she is still alive, I think. One witness dead, one being searched for on this site, another present, but I don't think he knew who/what he was witness to.
As for camp 4, you have to Want to be there. But jump in with your eyes how you want them, and have as much fun as you can; kinda like Death valley @ 120º or the South side at 2 a.m., it rocks, whether or not you are into it... Where else are you going to have THAT fun.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Logic gaps; you phrased some things in a way that suggests (irrelevent) preconcieved notions largely askew to how it all works in this granfalloon. It will take one of those here more erudite than myself to explain this, Roger?
c4? maybe google Snell's field?
"can't admit"? you mean the poopers? they could admit it, but they are choosing to deal with this in their own way, whether or not they have any idea that someone is requesting their head(s) here.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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LEB, I don't know the "facts" of WoS...
...I think Deucy had the best post explaining it so far. At the time Valley climbers where putting long routes up The Captain in a minimalist style. The technology and the experience had developed to the point where almost anyone could put a route up anywhere if they had the time and the gear, and did not feel constrained to keep the drilling to a minimum. I'm not saying that WoS is such a route...
"Outsiders" coming in to do a big route, unconnected with the local scene, is something that has happened before on El Cap. Some of those routes turned out ok, some where put up in questionable style for the time. As I understand the issue WoS is a very serious route, but for what ever reason, the FA team and the "locals" weren't able to commuincate, each group making very negative assumptions about the other's motives, behavior, style and ethics. This whole situation has never been resolved, and I doubt that it will ever be.
What is immutable is that the route exists for people to go up and attempt to climb, it is yet to see a second ascent, so the jury is out on its difficulty and quality; and that the FA team is so credited.
Someday climbers may offer kudos for the boldness and vision of the climb. If that happens the FA team will be vindicated.
But in the end, it is all about the climb, or should be...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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oh, Lois,
I didn't say she couldn't admit to it -it's public record, or I wouldn't have mentioned it. I said she can't Talk about it, and as a gentleman I can't elaborate further.
-just cause I'm messing with you doesn't mean I'm not serious about that aspect. hehe
I thought your WOS analysis was great, tech flaws aside, and again, you're on to something with the, "tainted", angle.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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4. I don’t understand this whole fall from ropes business. Can someone try to explain this better? Long speaks of falling 80 feet, 50 feet, falling past the first this to the second that or whatever. I read it a few times but did not still do not “get it” What exactly is breaking these falls and why do the people get so banged up? Are they banging against the rock wall as they fall?
OK, your homework is to watch the video clip at the link below and then tell me what you don't get.... there is some great shots, one of Osman falling on a climb pulling a whole lot of gear out, I had to catch my breath as the video pauses, not letting us know whether or not he hits the ground...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TokjJrMB9qs&mode=related&search=
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Weird, I talked to my mom tonight about how I thought Dano was an inspiriation for the Character 'Roberto' in the Clinton McKinzie novels.
Lois, check them out, crime fiction with climbers, the most real stuff about climbing in mainstream ficiton ever, minimal jargon.
http://www.clintonmckinzie.com
disclaimer, my dog and I are off screen characters (fully with my permission) in one of his books.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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LEB - I haven't done a good job explaining this... I don't think the "locals" believe they own the rock, or anything. Actually reading John you know the "locals" really only owned their freedom to choose to be in the Valley and not much more.
Anyone can put a route up. Who really cares? other climbers. Some climbers put routes up and they never tell anyone about the routes. Just doing it is good enough for those souls, they don't need or want the noteriety.
Some climbers put up climbs that break through some difficulty barrier, raise the bar. Obviously, other climbers will want to test their skills and abilities and climb those routes.
Some climbers put routes up to make a statement. I think that when you do this you open yourself up to the judgement of others, but that is to be expected, it is what you seek.
Using the term "locals" is misleading, as there are few true locals. There are people who devote large portions of their life to climbing in the Valley and know it well, and understand and repect the history of climbing there. Their numbers change, times change, styles and ethics change... usually "they" know what's happening.
In the end, the climbs are there to be done.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There are many interesting overtones and undertones to climbers and climber-behaviour. Not to mention the fine art of actually climbing.
It may help to think in anthropological or sociological terms. I have no qualifications in those fields, and hopefully someone more knowledgeable can say more about it.
The roots of many climber behaviours lie at least in part in adolescent male behaviours. In groups and out groups. (Perceived or real.) Sacrifice. Risk. Loyalty. Initiation rites. Competition, overt or implicit. Egalitarian, and accomplishment oriented. Ways of dressing and not dressing, talking, doing things. Attitudes towards others. Territoriality.
In relation to the thread about pecking order, climbers often don't so much as peck as pee. Males, marking territory. For example, a new route, especially if difficult, done in good 'style', or both, says to the world "I was here". Perhaps part of the eternal quest for immortality, too.
There may be parallels with hunting bands, military training groups, gangs, and other human groups. But there is a rare intensity in the climbing community. And, for all our squabbling, we are a community. A family, perhaps - though with some peculiar relations.
A lot of this is normal human behaviour. I hasten to emphasize that there's much more to it. A lot of climber behaviour speaks to the nobility and poetry of humanity.
In a few places and times, a community of climbers appears that at the time, and often later, seems to cause a paradigm shift. One such was the Stonemasters, first at Tahquitz in the early 1970s, then in Yosemite (Camp 4) in the mid and late 1970s. Another was an English 'club' called the Rock & Ice, in the 1950s, in Yorkshire, Wales and the Alps. For whatever reasons, they force the evolutionary pace, and become memorable.
Climbers are also a community which outsiders can find puzzling. If you don't climb, it can be harder to understand what it's about. Like so many things in life, the comprehension is as much in the soul and the bones as the intellect.
Anders
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: not sure if this will help on the "nobody owns the Nat Parks" thing.
Lets say that little strip of grass bordering the sidewalk near the street outside your house is public land. Your house is behind it and you will mow the grass, rake the leaves, and in general keep it nice. It does not belong to you, but you take care of of it. Then some A-hole from AnywhereUSA comes over and takes a dump on your grass. It ain't your grass.... but...... you pick up the dump and grumble and tell him that ain't the way we do it around here. Now a guy comes over and digs a hole. You fill it in.... scold the perp..... no big deal. Now a guy comes over and makes a change that is forever.... maybe a 40,000lb plug of concrete with a dash of plutonium.
The point being, some things are erasable if nipped in the bud. Some things will be a lasting monument. The Valley rock is like your strip of grass. Nobody owns it, but some people will to great lengths to protect it from what they feel is harm.
Nutshell:™™™
Leaving trash at the base of a cliff: Dump on your lawn. (Pick it up.)
Bolt near a crack: Digging a hole. (Chop it.)
WoS route on El Cap: Plutonium plug. ( game over )
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Interestig thread.
LEB, if you want to understand something about climbing, then in your case you need to go climbing, and for one reason: you stated that "you" have no interest or desire to go climbing. Going against our passive "spectator" sides, to which we are identified as "us," as who we are, involves moving outside our comfort zone into places "we" have ruled out of bounds.
Just go once, go out of bounds. That's what self mastery is all about, and that's what climbing is all about: going when "our" minds say no.
JL
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goatboy smellz
climber
up a peak without a paddle
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6. Hell hole is a relative term, an eye not peeled for "evil" rangers and hungry bears will bring you sorrow & pain.
I'll never forget my first time in the valley walking back from a day on the Apron, we stopped to sip some tea & noticed a rustling in a apple tree. "Cute a squirrel!" I thought... then the branches started bowing and creaking down, down, closer, closer... that's no squirrel!!!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"I think the issues get a bit muddled, however, when we speak of National Parks. They are located in local terrains, for sure. This means local morays and values will be present."
Yes, there are both morays and mores in the Valley, and other places people climb. Some of the former are rather toothy and slippery. A few of the latter also, possibly. A very nice pun, LEB.
Just leaving for a week - a few days in the Tetons, then Outdoor Retailer. So, barring a visit to the public library in Jackson, I won't be able to contribute further for a while.
You might be surprised at what you'd learn even by hanging around friendly (non-moray) climbers for a day or weekend, even if you didn't do any climbing. You'll get a much better feel for the community and its values. Better still, if you actually give climbing a try. It could be arranged.
Hopefully I won't run into any morays on my trip, though you never know. As the divers say "Put your hand in a crack, and you don't get it back, that a-moray."
Anders
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goatboy smellz
climber
up a peak without a paddle
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What more inspiration do yah need?
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Good one Anders. While I chided Lois for her spelling mistakes a few weeks ago, you found clever puns. Love the Dean Martin riff.
Buzz
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Teth
climber
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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LEB, at least this is a climbing thread, an improvement IMOP.
Why are the newcomers still upset 25 years later? If you where falsely accused of rape, and then were let off on a technicality so that everyone believes that you are guilty and no one will listen when you say you did not do it, then it would still hurt 25 years later, not because of what happened 25 years ago, but because people still think you are a rapist. These guys were accused of raping El Cap, and this is the first time in 25 years that anyone has listened to their side of the story. Someone managed to climbed the first 5 pitches and tried to publish his findings, but the magazines would not print it because he was saying that El Cap had not been raped. People are only listening this time because enough public interest was generated before the latest attempts and the climbing community chose their impartial judges who they would be willing to listen to.
As to why no one has climbed the WoS again, this is not because of its reputation. Many people, some very good climbers, have tried to climb the route but either were not good enough to climb it, or they underestimated how hard it was and had to turn back because they had not brought enough provisions.
As I understand it, the great revenge that these guys are looking for is for everyone to know that the person who shiit on the gear, was the person who shiit on the gear. If the perpetrator steps forward, then the act becomes a stupid dead of the culprit’s youth, and the newcombers would accept an apology and be done with it. I do not see that as an outrageous revenge. Certainly not drawing a quartering them.
As far as understanding climbing, well, can you explain to me how to perform open hard surgery without the use of pictures or any of that nasty medical jargon? If you will not try climbing, and you have made it clear that you will not, then hike to the base of a popular climbing cliff (in most cases this is worth doing just for the hike) and watch people climb. Watch people belay. Ask the climbers there what they are doing (we are much more used to people who have no clue about climbing asking these questions at the cliff than on a climbing forum). This will make a world of difference in your understanding.
Teth
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Lois, in the spirit of Teth's advice above (watching climbers) I'd suggest you go to Devil's Tower; all of your questions will be answered in a 5 minute, paved, walk. If you still have questions look up Frank at Devil's Tower lodge. He will talk to you longer than you will be able to listen. You will come away with more questions, but it should clear the ones you've asked so far.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Clearly Lois, you are not climbing material. Otherwise you would dump him. There are way more men than good climbing days.
Heehee.
Devils Tower is a National Monument in Wyoming. It is about 1800 miles from you. Take I 76 west
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Or the movie with the mashed potatoes...
which was just as dopey (imo).
Ouch! Now you've done it!
The almost climbing thread migrates into bears thread.
You know some domestic cat allegedly treed a black bear in NJ?
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