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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 20, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
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Stop, Jane, stop. Or I'll bash you with this sign of my importance. zzzzzzzz
--Doug Berry the Sign Guy in Much Ado About No Anchors
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Nov 20, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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The Roher Rappel routes are considered legit adventures in Yosemite, people canyoneer all over the planet. I don't really see the logic in not allowing a person to establish a rap route. There is risk, and it takes skill.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Nov 20, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
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Inherent risk includes subjecting oneself to descending where the NPS tells you to descend? I think not.
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Nov 20, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
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A lot of sadness here. Yup, some climber died from rockfall on a crowded, chossy but great route. Sad. Someone used that death to rant agin' the gov'mint. Sad. Many people seem to think that the solution to the problem is lots of bolts. Sad.
However, this Epic Brewing Pumpkin Porter is awesome, and I raise a glass in respect for the deceased. R.I.P.
"If the climber had been killed by broken tat or an anchor block that pulled it would be different. ... I am open to replacing tat infested rappels with bolt anchors, but implying the lack of bolts may have caused this accident is a huge stretch."
Since I am not really a climber anymore, let me just say:
Gawd you climbers (most) are stupid. Hook up to a pile of tat around a loose block and... Frakkin A: why do you people let piles of tat accumulate. Cluelessness. Cut the tat, carry it out, replace with good stuff. If the frakking block is loose, go find something better. Leave a cam or nut, if necessary. Figure out a decent anchor. Ga-awd, don't you people want to live?
I know it is a 50crowdedclimb and attracts the less competent, but really, it is up to SuperTacoTypes (presumably better-than-your-average-bear/climber) to cut the tat and maintain the routes. My problem here is that the assumption is that the choice is bolted-to-poop or piles of tat off loose blocks. Is there no other choice? (ahem: well, given NC choss, perhaps not)
BITD did it and the very scary climb down the snow in the steep gully was the scariest part of the day. Glad to have my MSR snow-climbing giant ice axe. Global warming = no more snow? I blame the Republicans because... yeah like that.
Out.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 20, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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The climbing community can squabble over "maintaining adventure", and via a process of some type come to an agreement as to the best method for dealing with specific sites.
The crux is not the climbing community though, but the inability of the NCNP to find a practical set of bounds as to how it interprets the Wilderness Act as written into its guidance documents. Crusher's comment suggesting input from the guides could be valuable in balancing policy.
The American ideal of Wilderness and the "never give an inch" stance supporting the harshest interpretation of choices available seems to clash with the need to accommodate growing numbers of citizens that want to explore and recreate in the high mountains. Advocates of pure Wilderness should consider softening their position before the public demands a wholesale demolition of the Wilderness Act.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Nov 20, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
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All this scrutiny and weighing of values is good and valid, but each situation is unique.
Good observation. I started out thinking I would be against the rap route but changed my mind when I learned more about it. I dont think its healthy to have fixed opinions about anything. It's actually a pretty good sign of old age.
I doubt these rangers engaged in the kind of hand wringing that Crusher talks about, though. Hey they dont make the law, they just enforce it. How many times have you heard that. Write to your congressman if you don't like it. Now somebody go back up there and rebolt it, and dare them to chop it again. For some reason this is reminding me of the sad Jonny Copp / Micah Dash story.
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Nov 21, 2013 - 12:14am PT
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"Now somebody go back up there and rebolt it, and dare them to chop it again."
Yes, I am SURE this will FORCE them to respect the climbing community.
Not.
If you want a rap route there, respect their jurisdiction. Get a petition with 100 signatures and go in, "helmet in hand", and ask for permission to put in a rappel route. It'll probably take a year to get permission.
While it might seem NOW is a good time to do that, I would guess the opposite. NOW would be seen as an admission that they made a mistake, which bureaucracies are loathe to do.
Tom
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ArmandoWyo
climber
Wyoming
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Nov 21, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
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This may be a little late into the life of this thread to point out that at the time the rappel bolts were placed and then removed by the NPS ranger, placing bolts was legal. The only legal prohibition was against power drills, and it seems to be conceded that these bolts were placed by hand. (Actually bolts are now legal as well; the new Director's Order 41 only establishes a procedure for authorizing new and replacement bolts.)
The lamentable death may not have been intentional or malicious, but for those who say that the ranger "was only following the law", I ask, what law? This at least isn't debatable: she was enforcing her own prejudices and options. That is why, in my opinion, this accident was not only tragic, but preventable and indefensible,
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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Ron, you sound like you are really old...
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
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Chopped bolts - especially some that were there for a long period of time - is not a benefit to public safety. I sincerely doubt that there was an attempt to inform the community when the new and old bots were removed. The same agency that sees fit to install guard rails, put up warning signs that trails next to waterfalls may be slippery, etc. doesn't think twice to collect its fees and chop longstanding bolts on a popular route.
This man's death was tragic. Whether the chopping directly or indirectly contributed to that is not as important to me as the fact that a ranger took it upon herself to remove a long standing anchor without any notice or discussion and did not warn the public that the safety of the descent had changed. That is careless disregard for public safety by a public servant.
This is a 5.4 climb. If relatively less skilled climbers can't experience the joy of alpine climbing on an easy classic without exposing themselves to more harm due to the direct action of the NPS, human life has become meaningless to the NPS.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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Ron, I don't see how a rappel route is different for the 5.4 climber or the grizzled veteran...
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
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Ron's greatest contribution here will be that of getting the thread up over 100 posts sooner than it may otherwise have happened.
It's all practice for getting the climate change thread to 20,000.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Nov 21, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
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Kinda telling that so many are concerned about a tree on this site, but not a human life.
The NPS rangers need to be sued. They had a personal agenda that got a climber killed.
What's more telling is the apparent lack of acceptance of personal responsibility in your statement. It's dangerous to climb, moreso in the alpine. The rangers did not get the climber killed.
The E. Ridge will not become a descent route for guided parties. It is a typically traversing, long ridge with a couple of steep sections to it, including one that is very steep with a couple of 5.8 moves. The E. Ridge descent involves doing 2-3 rappels down the ridge near the summit, and then a long 3rd class traverse. The traverse is loose enough that it would be impossible to adequately protect a client/climber. We stayed roped for it, but it was hard to get good pro for the traverse. Falling, even roped together would have been ugly. While not as bad as the MountainProjecters would have you believe, it is not a straighforward descent.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
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If the Park Circus is such a bunch of purists then why do they allow guiding?
Based on that logic there should be a Circle K at the parking lot.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Nov 21, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
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This is a 5.4 climb. If relatively less skilled climbers can't experience the joy of alpine climbing on an easy classic without exposing themselves to more harm due to the direct action of the NPS, human life has become meaningless to the NPS.
What? Bolt the mountains into submission for the masses? Or else be blamed for their deaths?
Bullsh#t.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
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It's good to be talking about it at least. We're not talking about bolting something into submission but creating alternatives in a very dangerous placed that has a tendency to get a little crowed at times. The access to this peak, considering what it is, is very easy compared to many mountains. It certainly is not wilderness.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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It's good to be talking about it at least.
But it's a pity we're talking to ourselves while the Park Circus commissars
sit in their nice cozy offices dreaming up new bullsh!t regulations and
counting down the days until their cushy retirements.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
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Yee of little faith! :>) I nailed the 100th post.....beat Ron to it. I mean.....I did it clean.
Since I could not edit my original title let me do it here;
Chopped bolts lead to death on Forbidden Peak?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
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This is about the stupid behavior of a zealous park employee, behavior that does not serve the Park Service well. It may or may not have contributed to that particular death, but we do not want Park Service employees taking unilateral action like that. They can respect us as much as we are supposed to respect them.
I was at a Mt. Rainier trailhead parking lot years ago and a Ranger interrogated every every car and person there over a blue-bag of sh#t. He was lucky I didn't report him to the AUTHORITIES. He and I are lucky I did not do worse. We eventually became friends!
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
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Amazing how posts can be misread and just selected pieces quoted to prove the point you want to make.
I am not saying bolt every 5.4 into submission. The point is that an established bolt anchor on an easy, popular climb was put in since the horn was loose. Years later n NPS employee unliaterally removes it and does not even warn the public that the descent is now even more dangerous. That is not acceptable.
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