retro bolting- colorado

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survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:38pm PT

Also I would always ask permission to retro-bolt a route...too many of mine have been but I still seem to live through it. :-)

That's all I wanted to see. Thanks Bob.

Chris should have made the effort.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:50pm PT

Chris should have made the effort.

I believe you are still making assumptions, yes? Do you have any idea what efforts he did or didn't make, and have you seen the route in question?

My perceptions on this episode are colored by a ST thread about bolts being added to routes at Suicide. Unless you had seen the routes and the added bolts at issue (I did), you really had nothing to say other than general yap-flapping, at least as applied to those routes.
General comments about retro-bolting may or may not be interesting, but that's not the same thing as commentary on a specific route.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:56pm PT

"The FA party owns the route" does not appeal to younger climbers conscience.

It was a dirty POS relic nobody cared about until today. CW and MS are hardly "younger climbers".

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:59pm PT

I believe you are still making assumptions, yes?

I suppose. As are you?

Seems reasonably clear from Chris's MP post.

Reportedly freed by Thom Byrne in 1988, Archangel remained largely ignored until 2013. If Byrne freed it, his ascent was extremely bold.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:22pm PT

Bob, you are the one as guidebook author ignoring my questions.
Show us where those bolted route are in the old guide and maybe you will gain some credence.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:25pm PT

I suppose. As are you?

I don't think it's reasonably clear at all what happened--I suppose that's an "assumption" on my part, but let me add a little more.
I have a copy of Rossiter's 1997 Upper Dream Canyon guide (and I've been at least an occasional UDC visitor since around then, not that that is super relevant).
Archangel is listed in that guide as requiring 13 QDs, which doesn't make any sense if there were only a couple bolts. Also, the guide shows an incomplete project to the right of Archangel; the bolts that Chris found could have been from that project.
Rossiter was apparently somewhat involved with Archangel; he added some bolts on an easy approach pitch with "Thom Byrne."
Perhaps Rossiter and/or Bryne intended to bolt Archangel, but never got around to doing so, but Byrne had aided or toproped it or something or other before then.
From Googling, Weidner is a 14 sport climber and 13 trad (Eldo) climber; if he's skeptical that the route was ever really freed, I may trust his skepticism, especially if the only reason to think it was freed was some cryptic info from an old Rossiter guide.
I've never heard of "Thom Byrne." I'm sure there were plenty of very good old-skool Boulder climbers whose names I don't know, but I think the whole affair is anything but "reasonably clear."

the kid

Trad climber

fayetteville, wv

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 04:28pm PT

wow. ok my post made it to 80.
now can we quit the name calling and ego bashing and who climbs how hard.
how about we just talk about this route and the effect it has on the overall aspect of the sport.

Does the FA party own the route- in some ways no, and in a lot of ways (wait for it, wait for it) damn right we do. We put in the work, paid for the gear or bolts, put our asses on the line and opened it up for everyone to ENJOY!
So, it comes down to a simple lack of respect when this happens without anyone asking the FA party if this would be cool.
A bunch of years ago i was doing a slide show in So Cal. some climbers came up to me and raved about Bikini Whale- how they loved the route and really wanted to lead it but were too scared and would only tope rope it. They asked really nicely if bolts could be added. I said yes because it was a top rope first and i lead it, on sight, ground up old school. I got the rush, the experience i wanted from the route and was happy to open it up to the masses.

This was not the case with Cookie Monster and we know that story well.

So stop the name calling and bashing. if you can't have this discussion with respect and decency then don't chime in.

Im not name calling or bashing Chris for what he did, just asking the questions, why and what good does it do to bring the route/sport down to your level when climbing used to be about stepping up to the level of the route you desire to climb.
kurt

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:30pm PT

but I think the whole affair is anything but "reasonably clear."

I didn't say the whole affair was reasonably clear, only that it was reasonably clear that Chris didn't do the homework.

Having your doubts is one thing, but bolting up something that is listed as someone else's FA without finding the facts is a different thing.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:32pm PT

I am willing to bet $100 that there will be no convincing evidence that the route bolted by Weidner was ever led free, prior to his bolting.
Edit--actually let me change that, no bet (don't feel like arguing with anyone about terms)--
If anyone presents convincing evidence that the route was led free, I will donate $100 to the 501(c)(3) charity or ST charity recipient of his/her choice.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:33pm PT

Kurt...you didn't ask Chris...you posted this "retro-bolting-Colorado under an assumption. You knew exactly what kind of reaction this would bring on.

Then you have most people wanting to hang Chris by the balls without even knowing the full story. Lame in my opinion.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:38pm PT

Eric wrote: Show us where those bolted route are in the old guide and maybe you will gain some credence.

I don't need your acceptance on anything Eric. Do you understand that?

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:49pm PT

If anyone presents convincing evidence that the route was led free, I will donate $100 to the 501(c)(3) charity or ST charity recipient of his/her choice.

In this case shouldn't it be Chris presenting evidence, other than his "assumption" that it wasn't led free?

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:00pm PT

In this case shouldn't it be Chris presenting evidence, other than his "assumption" that it wasn't led free?

I don't know--I don't know if there is any reason to suspect that the route was ever done free other than the clearly wrong reference in the old Rossiter guide (that the route took 13 QDs, which is suspiciously like the 14 bolts added by Weidner). It really sounds to me like the route was intended to be bolted by Rossiter and/or "Byrne", Rossiter somewhat optimistically added it to his guide before that happened, and for whatever reason, it never did happen.
Yes, I'm doing a lot of assuming here, but so is anyone who thinks the route was led before the bolts were added. (There are references to the route possibly taking "micro-gear" that didn't exist in the mid 80s.
What are your grounds for thinking the route was led free? Anything other than the Rossiter guide?

Oh, and I know $100 isn't a lot of money, but I'm not planning on playing any games like holding anyone to some super strict standard of proof. Just any convincing evidence, I'd take Rossiter's word for it (don't think he posts here).

Off White

climber

Tenino, WA

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:04pm PT

Ah well, from the thread title I was hoping someone had retro bolted the whole damn state.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:09pm PT

"Kurt...you didn't ask Chris...you posted this "retro-bolting-Colorado under an assumption. You knew exactly what kind of reaction this would bring on.

Then you have most people wanting to hang Chris by the balls without even knowing the full story. Lame in my opinion."

Chris sounds like a good guy. It's lame that a bunch of internet strangers, wankers and lamo's like me can all show up and present opinions on a route and a place they don't know anything about. Let the locals who know what the heck is what figure this out. I'd be willing to bet that the oldtime climbers standby that if some jerkoff slaps in unwanted bolts then another jerkoff has the same right to pull them out is still in play. If it's a noble community effort by good folks in this case then the bolts will stay. But again, that's for them to figure out. Except for the "retro FA" comment on MP, that's some lame stuff. It's a FA or it's not. Steve Byrne led a hard route at Smith way back when that few good climbers could even successfully TR, just cause it was sh#t for pro, doesn't mean it didn't get led.

PS, Bobby D, calm yerself a tad for yer heart blows. Not worth it.

Good luck with it guys.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:18pm PT

couchmaster wrote: PS, Bobby D, calm yerself a tad for yer heart blows. Not worth it.

Funny, the old ticker is doing quite well since I had the plumbing redone. :-)

the kid

Trad climber

fayetteville, wv

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 05:31pm PT

actually Bob i did ask Chris on his post on FB and he did not ask the fA party..
for the record i never threw chris under the bus nor called him names like what some of you folks are doing here.
i posted up because i am concerned about this type of ethic becoming more and more prevalent.
what really sucks is some folks here cannot have a discussion without calling each other dicks and being jackasses.

ok im done with this post, have fun. im going to drink a PBR..

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:39pm PT

CONVINCING EVIDENCE that the climb was done how it was reported????

Well f*#k... throw out 99% of all climbing history lol

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:54pm PT

Bolting Bob, you protest too much, everyone from the Gunks to Colorado knows your history of bolting and its no big deal just man up and drop the hard man act. You should be proud of your past accomplishments and endeavors and stop attacking the messenger that you are a retro bolting bitch.

Rosssiter guide, nothing west of Castle Rock, wonder why???
Not reported, huh? not done? OMG why knot?
What an opportunity... how come all those climbers heading up the canyon missed all that rock right off the road?

Bolting Bob's guidebook, hmm.... where did all this new rock come from?
Did Jesus rise up and create it for a new generation?
Was it knot reported in Neptunes big book and ignored by the bolters?

rolling, rolling, rolling...hey Bob all in all just having fun with yah.
But seriously don't sit there and tell me BC hasn't been retroed to death.

Cheers!
Eric