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John M
climber
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Jun 30, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
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You use PC as a disparagement when you disagree with someone and don't have a response. Why do you need to label someone PC? Just state your opinion about the problem without adding insults, such as "haters'. Why go there? Did Jesus? When you claim to be suffering for Christ, then you will be held to a higher standard. You are free to disagree. You aren't free to trade insults.
Trading insults and then pretending to be better "suffering for Christ", is hoity toity. Hoity toity is a form of arrogance.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 30, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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"Yes health care reform is drastically needed, but the bill, as passed, is hugely flawed."
I don't think there're many on the Left who believe the HR bill that passed was the best option, but the status quo was not an acceptable alternative. Once the obstructionist Right figured out they weren't going to be able to bury this issue, they did everything they could to sabotage it.
So it is what it is. There is at least a shred of hope that it could morph into something better. I'm skeptical about that, but it's better than what the Right had to offer.
Which was nothing.
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John M
climber
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Jun 30, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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Ron, do you have more confidence in the insurance industry to keep things fair?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 30, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
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He's doing great, though he's probably wondering if this heat is going to be the new normal. About the most significant behavior issues I've noted thusfar is a tendency to bark a bit at passersby, and running after squirrels & stuff. Pretty normal dog stuff, and perfectly trainable.
No, Dean...I don't think that's an accurate analogy.
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John M
climber
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Jun 30, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
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I'm in TOTAL agreement with you that the GOP has SUCKED at coming up with an alternative
Thats the first time that I have heard you say anything even remotely like that. Hopefully you will express that to your parties leadership.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jun 30, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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I'm in TOTAL agreement with you that the GOP has SUCKED at coming up with an alternative.
Umm, did he say that?
And anyway, the GOP came up with an excellent alternative: Romneycare. Obamacare is directly based on the GOP's own plan.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 30, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
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I gotta say, I'm pretty impressed with that acknowledgement, too.
Given that the GOP had no alternative other than drive a stake through the heart of HR, and bury it for at least another 40 years, I just don't see how that could possibly be construed as an 'option'...esp. when the vast majority of Americans agree that our healthcare system is a disaster.
I'm probably about as skeptical as many on the Right, and expect this rollout to be bumpy for at least a few years. Along the way, there will be lots of politicking, too- lots of 'I told you sos', and lots of anecdotal examples of how it's not working. It will be very difficult to be able to empirically demonstrate that it has made any improvement, or even helped to slow the downward spiral healthcare has been on for decades.
In the meantime, this is all just Sunday afternoon chatter & speculation. The full impacts won't be known for quite some time.
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John M
climber
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Jun 30, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
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Dean, the Republican leadership could stand to be taken to task publicly for these issues. So far I hear Republicans say that they do, but then I never hear them do it publicly and thus nothing ever changes.
My father is a devout Republican and he disagreed with the Iraq war, but he never really did anything that changed anything. He wrote his congressman, but then he continued to vote for him and he never took his displeasure public, so the congressman did not feel any pressure to change. Writing/talking to your congressman just isn't enough. You either have to go public, or you have to stop voting for them. Thats what democrats did to get their leadership to wake up to the need for fiscal responsibility.
And yes, I know that Obama hasn't balanced a budget. He was given a crippled economy. I was talking about when Clinton won election and the push started coming from Democrats to balance the budget. Its been lost in all the other stuff that is going on, but there is still a large part of the Democrat party that wants a balanced budget. We just see that we need to get the economy going again before we can do that. Cutting social services while growing the military just isn't acceptable to most liberals. Yet that is what W did, and we heard very few complaints from the Republicans. Even among those Republicans who disagreed with the Iraq war.
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BMcC
Trad climber
Livermore
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Jun 30, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
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Hey Cragman - farther up-thread you posted this:
"Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2013 - 09:54am PT
Anyone catch this recent article in Newsweek? (Arguably one of the most liberal forms of print media)
By Matt Patterson (Newsweek Columnist – Opinion Writer)
Years from now, historians may regard the 2008 election of Barack Obama as an inscrutable and disturbing phenomenon, the result of a baffling breed of mass hysteria akin perhaps to the witch craze of the Middle Ages. How, they will wonder, did a man so devoid of professional accomplishment beguile so many into thinking he could manage the world's largest economy, direct the world's most powerful military, execute the world's most consequential job? etc etc "
Interestingly it turns out the publication of that 'piece of work' was reviewed by Snopes in 2011 (i.e., not recently) and found to have not been published in Newsweek (as YOU claimed) nor the Washington Post (as others have claimed). It's an August 2011 opinion piece from a right-wing blog called the 'American Thinker'.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/affirmative.asp
Snopes agrees with Crunch who posted (10:07a.m.) that the Matt Peterson opinion 'piece' was not published in Newsweek.
In summary, your article Cragman, was not recent and not in the Washington Post or Newsweek (as some chain-emails claimed), looks like something authored by someone who hates President Obama, and is not credible.
Cheers!
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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Blood lust Paul ?
No ....just the facts ... I really don't care one way or the other ...
I had a good time that day talking with you and your dad by the way ...
But I've grown beyond respecting climbers just because they are climbers
I think it was my programming and love of climbing that affected my judgment.
I will never respect someone who blasts away a gorgeous bear because it was possibly ripping at his screen. You have to understand I grew up in red neck Alberta where there are bears everywhere and even there no one would ever do this ..
Or someone who preaches ridiculous garbage and then whines because everyone is mean to him cause he is a Christian.....this is pathology we have seen over and over again I here . You have to understand someone like cragman would be burning us at the stake in another day and age ...
Some of the most twisted sh#t there is in the world resides in the pathology displayed on this thread .
And I strongly feel he should be charged for shooting that bear in the back in a crazed gun rage and then pretending it was attacking him ..
My family, friends and community love animals and respect their right to live.
I would never pass judgment on a life like this because the poor animal smelt some food ..
If it was a problem the rangers could have taken care of it ..
But he wanted to kill ...
I hope people pick up the cause ...
I see he has now tried to delete all the evidence...
Perhaps you are the one who's pathological?
C'mon Riley, lighten up. :)
BTW, I've been to Dean's house twice and I have yet to catch fire being an Atheist and all. I've spent the night once and at no time was an exorcism attempted. ;) Hahaha
Ironically, while there, religion has not come up once. Hmmmm....
Fact is, none of us were there when that bear broke into his house.
Go climbing brah :)
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
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LOL!
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
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DOH!
lol
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jun 30, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
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Be glad I'm not Jewish....and celebrate the brit!
Bris?
Susan
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jun 30, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
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Thanks, Susan!
It's usually spell checker fun....like when I calendared "mammo" and it corrected it to "mammoth". Later on when I saw it I thought, "I don't remember that we're going to Mammoth"...
Feel free to celebrates the Brits; though, I have mixed feelings!
Happy summer,
Susan
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Cragman:
My shift is over and I'm home drinking a "few" beers.
Not to keep this thread on a serious tone, I challenge you to guess what percentage of the people we saw today had private health insurance, what percentage had some form of Government Insurance (L&I, Medicare, Medicaid), and what percentage had no insurance at all (the hospital "ate" the bill)?
Also, what percentage had real "emergencies" that needed to be seen in the ED in the first?
Cragman, I think we share an agreement that this country faces some very real problems. I think we might also agree that it is time for us to put aside our religious and political differences, roll up our sleeves and go to work.
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supp
climber
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This thread is yet another replay of the phony “debate” over the ACA that started in 2009. Realists acknowledge our healthcare system is screwed up big time and wrestle with what practical changes can be made to improve it. OTOH the do nothing camp says FU to the 50 million Americans that have no insurance at all and flings mistruths right and left (socialism, 3x’s larger than the IRS code, most will pay double what they do now, armed IRS agents enforcing the mandate) to avoid actually engaging in debate or looking for solutions. And of course underlying the generalized opposition to anything tied to Obama from the gop base of older whites is the gut feeling of many of them that a black guy can’t be qualified to be president, he’s an AA hire and “an impostor in the Oval Office.” Too bad Obama made concessions to these guys in designing the ACA when their intent was to sabotage it and pretty much any effort that could clip the wings of corporate America.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Pretty sure obama care is going to suck simply because the sick fuk repuglicans fought it so hard that by the time something could actually get passed the insurance companys had pumped hundreds of milions of dollars into it and we end up with a bill that is good for them and bad for us.
medicare for everyone now is the only moral thing to do. let our taxes pay for our health care. NOT giveing healthcare to Iraqis, afgans and guns to islamic wingnuts in syria. Etc.
All the money we pissed away invadeing Iraq could have set us up pretty with the best health care system in the world. Instead weengaged in the biggest f*#k up of our lifetime.....
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supp
climber
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A little balance here to some of the sky is falling because of the ACA claims. I dont think there are many supporters saying it's perfect out of the box or even that it's the ideal solution or that there won't be problems rolling it out, especially with the gop working hard to make it fail, but it's also true that it's a significant step forward that will cover 30 million or so people who now have no insurance, create more of an equal playing field for the self-employed, force insurers to spend most of your premiums on actual healthcare, and do away with insurers denying you coverage or charging you more for preexisting conditions. Don't forget the republican alternative is the privilege of living in the only rich country where many of its citizens are forced to file for medical bankruptcy every year or are denied care by a for-profit insurance company.
Here's a recent forecast that premiums will be lower than expected due in part to that evil, freedom-stealing Obamacare:
Health Cost Growth Slows Further Even as Economy Rebounds
By Alex Wayne - Jun 18, 2013
Provisions in the Affordable Care Act that penalize hospitals for excessive readmissions and encourage employers to offer wellness programs are slowing the growth of U.S. medical costs, even as the economy rebounds.
Health-care costs for commercial insurers and employers are expected to rise about 4.5 percent next year after accounting for changes in benefits, PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP said in a report today. The increase is a percentage point less than what the consulting company projected for 2013.
The report cited the positive effect of provisions in the health-care law that reduced hospital readmissions by 70,000 in 2012 and lowered premiums for people in employer-sponsored smoking cessation or chronic-disease management programs. The report supports President Barack Obama’s contentions that the 2010 law has contributed to historically slow cost growth...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/2013-06-18/health-cost-growth-slows-further-even-as-economy-rebounds.html
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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I think everyone agrees that the US healthcare system is a terrible mess. Embarrasingly so. Some people get good care. But Millions of course do not.
Millions.. in the the wealthiest nation the world has ever seen.
Obamacare may or may not be an improvement to having done nothing. I suspect it is a slight improvement. Folks can differ on that for sure.
I havn't heard anyone say that it is a good solution.
So many countries around the world have better systems. Ranging from true socialized medicine like our VA to single-payer to mixed private and public insurance.
Lots of ways to skin the cat as they say. Nothing this complex can be a one size fits all for every nation. Any system will have it's drawbacks.
But when you leave almost everything to private insurance you are making a terrible mistake. Those folks are industrial strength bloodsuckers who would absolutely prefer you die instead of honor their contract if it means more than taking your payments. That is my beef with Obamacare.
As little as I like big government or trust it. I like and trust insurance companies even less. Obabma care seems to take the worst of both these worlds and combine them..
I'd rather just pay taxes than an insurance company.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Chaz: Socialism doesn't work here.
Yes it does. It works great for the rich. They love it. Socialize the losses, privatize the profits.
It's when the rest of us want socialism that it's bad.
And if socialism is such a failure, why are most of Forbe's Magazine's best cities in the world to live in located in social democracies?
The world is capitalist, and the vast majority of the world lives in a shithole. That system is the failure.
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