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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 24, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
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How many Americans know the difference between an Iranian and a Persian? They do in Tehran, it's a matter of perspective.
When it comes to knowledge of of this planet beyong the borders of Estados Unidos, our educational system has been a monumental failure.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 24, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
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I don't believe either side has a lock on the moral high ground in this "war."
Dave, you know I value your opinions highly, so please don't take this disagreement as personal criticism. Frankly, I'm unaware of any war in which any belligerent has a monopoly on moral high or low ground.
Nonetheless, I cannot see how attacks intended to kill belligerents, but which also unintentionally harm innocents, deserve the same moral condemnation as attacks designed to kill innocents. Not all perspectives deserve moral neutrality.
John
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jun 24, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
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How many Americans understand the difference between an Iraqi or a Persian, a Shia or a Sunni?
How many care?
How many Americans go around killing Iraqis or "Persians" (sort of a strange word to use) or Shias or Sunnis for no discernible reason? (Sadly, the answer is not quite "none," but it's rare.)
It's one thing not to know differences between different groups, it's another to target people for being a member of a group but not knowing anything about the group you're (sort of) targeting.
If your contention is the Taliban considers the entire non-Taliban world to be the same group and would like to kill that entire group, well, maybe you're on to something.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
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How many Americans would go to jail if they didn't pay their taxes to fund these wars?
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jun 24, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
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Flying them out was the only choice if you consider the negative
PR value to Pakistan that pictures of 10 body bags tied to 10 yaks or mules
plodding down the trail for everyone to see!
Images like that would just encourage more terrorism.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Jun 24, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
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rSin
Any chance you could work on your punctuation, spelling, and start using capital letters? I might read more of your posts.
Thank you.
Erik :-)
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 24, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
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Of all the mountains, walls, formations etc out there, some find Fitz Roy or Cerro Torre to be the one that really calls to them. For others it might be El Cap, Alpamayo, K2, or whatever strikes your fancy . For me, it was always Nameless Tower.
And I knew, even then (way before 9/11), that there was no way in hell I would ever set foot in Pakistan. Some dreams are best left as dreams.
Todd Gordon went, back in the late 80s or early 90s. Had a great experience (with the people anyway, I think the clmbing part of the trip didn't go as planned due to rockfall/icefall). I can still envision that picture of Todd with some pakistani children, all smiles.
But Todd could credibly pass for a local at first glance, with dark hair, eyes, and beard. Pasty-ass, scotch/german white boy like me wouldn't last 10minutes before being chopped up for infidel soup. Crazy world, crazier people. God told them to do it, you know.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Jun 24, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
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Spellchecker?!
Please.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Jun 24, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
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I can’t even make email or word work.
Its notepad or this...
You know you can’t use spell checker unless you can recognize the "correct" choice don’t you?
Pathetic I know.
Your elitist tendency to associate these niceties with insight and valuable contribution will just have to suffer.
Welcome to reality.
In a world that tolerates parents who don’t give a sh#t about education except for voting against it whenever it’s on the ballot or brought up in a conversation.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 24, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
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Never wrestle with a pig.
You'll only get dirty,
and the pig enjoys it.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jun 24, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
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jesus f*#king christ...they were there to have fun, and climb some rock...instead they got greased by inbred drone bait. sorry, but you're comparison to indians(Native Americans?) falls flat.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 24, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
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Reconcile this with your "it's all the west's fault" philosophy.
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This is far removed from the prime mover in all of this, which happens on the instinctual level of aggression, not on whether or not we have intellectually decided that our aggressin is "legal," and the collateral damange "a real shame for those involved," and that the other fellow is a terrorist. Aggression will always be met with aggression from the other party, no matter what mythology we tell ourselves per its use. Again, this is not a moral or ethical or political issue at all. All that happens way up the ladder of brain function.
If you want to diminish aggression by whatever name you want to call it - premptive strikes, terrorism, self defense, et al - stop being aggresive and seek other means. If you freely choose aggression as an operative tool, live with the results/fallout, because one thing is certain in this game: people will always retaliate. It's our nature.
JL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jun 25, 2013 - 03:03am PT
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I think that people in America have a hard time realizing that in most parts of our planet, you can get killed easily and everyday by someone who wants your shoes;......freedom, life, respect of life, rules, laws;....it all goes in the toilet with poverty, ignorance, hatred, fear, and greed. These are dicey times;.....that is why it's best to make up your own rules to the game and live by those rules;.....seems more and more like "doesn't play well with others" t-shirts have become uber-popular and our planet is a dangerous place for humans. Sleep w/one eye open, watch your back, plan and prepare for your family and loved ones, and roll the dice and keep your fingers crossed.
I'm still optimistic about the world for myself and my family;....I have small children who I want to grow up not being fearful of a world out to get them. With 1 in 4 children in America living in poverty;.....it is hell on earth for so many. Make each day special, make each day count, and try to ignore the craziness that seems to be taking over;.......perception is reality.......We in America have been ignoring the horrible things that have been going on in Africa for centuries now;.........I live in a world of McDonalds, TV/computors, rock climbing, scorching summer heat, love, and children;.......not one of aids, epidemics, plagues, murder, suppression, violence, poverty, and war....I know it's out there and I know it's real;...but if I (or we) truly grasp the concept of reality for billions of our fellow humans;.....we'd all cry ourselves to sleep every night of our lives.....I know I'm a lucky fuk and a spoiled rich American imperialist;.....I will do what I can to make things better for all that I come in contact with in my "world".....and pray for and ignore what I cannot change......
I went to Pakistan about 20 years ago;....the Pakistan people said that George Bush (senior) is giving money to Indian to fight a war against them in Kasmir;...I replied to them that that was my leader's decision;....not mine;...and that I was there to have fun and climb big mountains........and I will try to keep that "have fun and climb mountains" attitude going for another 30 years or so;....wish me good luck...I'll need it....
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jun 25, 2013 - 03:21am PT
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Todd, when I win the lottery, I'm going to buy you a big ass swimming pool. Freakkin huge I tell ya! An oasis!!!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 04:21am PT
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Jeebus H. Christ.....
10 climbers were murdered, shot point blank through the head, by terrorists who spent 2 days getting up there to do that.
Knock off the geopolitical historical debate bullish*t in this thread. This was pre-meditated murder on innocent tourists from countries that weren't even associated closely with the US.
China is pissed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 25, 2013 - 04:45am PT
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The attack wasn't so much aimed at the US, or the countries of the victims, so much as at the Pakistan government for allowing us to operate drone bases on Pak soil. We've taken a deliberate strategy of not letting the Taliban run their Afghan campaign from the 'safety' of Pakistan's Tribal Areas and for them to mount a far-flung and highly public attack like this on international non-combatants means our drone strikes are in fact taking a serious toll on their leadership.
Drone attacks often cause collateral deaths, these poor souls now appear to be among them, however indirectly.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 25, 2013 - 08:01am PT
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Healeyje-
I agree and stated something similar up thread.
Randisi-
China is a major ally and foreign aid donor to Pakistan. Killing their nationals will have far reaching ramifications.
rSin
I don't disagree with what you've said but the issue of third world poverty is yet more complicated than colonial vestiges or imperialism. I know because I worked for the Swiss government (about as neutral as you can get) on a foreign aid project in Nepal and have 300 pages of reports explaining why their project wasn't working and how complicated the cultural issues were - and this was in a country that had never been colonized by western powers.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jun 25, 2013 - 08:22am PT
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I think the tribal areas of western Pakistan are so out of control of the Pakistani government, and the world for that matter;...it's a place on planet earth where the "bad guys" rules supreme and the biggest bullies run the show......it way more complicated than the Pakistani government "letting" them have a safe haven within it's borders. Read up on the area;....no one travels there because it's so dangerous and ruled by tribal warlords who are very powerful and corrupt and they like it that way. Bomb them with drones and you have bombed their "clubhouse"......This is serious business and they want the world to know that when you fuk w/them, .....well;...anything can happen, and it aint' gonna be very pretty.....it will be brutal to any and all.......(and we are still messing w/these guys because of 9/11......is that why we are still swatting the hornest's nest and then crying when we get stung?...).....who are the crazy ones here.......
Does the world need America to be the policemen for our whole planet.....
Live and let live........(Beer, bolts, and babes...)...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:13am PT
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Let me guess. Climbers are not that important in China and the government has not made a point of getting the Chinese people stirred up about this. Probably as you stated, they see some advantage in maintaining relations with Pakistan. They have a warm water port now in Burma so it can't be that. I'm guessing it's for the same reason we do, so we can claim to have a Muslim ally which is good PR when discussing oil contracts.
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