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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 11, 2013 - 03:47am PT
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Edward Snowden is a "whistleblower' in the same way Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen and John Walker Jr. were all "whistleblowers."
Curt
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 11, 2013 - 04:00am PT
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Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Jun 11, 2013 - 04:11am PT
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I understand your opinion, but your modern day PAul Revere is heading into a federal pen for quite a long time.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 11, 2013 - 04:19am PT
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Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century.
Well, if you're a Revolutionary War buff, he's actually more similar to Benedict Arnold.
Curt
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Jun 11, 2013 - 10:37am PT
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K-Man, my understanding of the testimony to which you cite is that the "communications" have a specific meaning in the intelligence community - namely, specific verbal or written communications being "intercepted" by a human. The programs at issue do not involve this from what I understand. I also understand that if they (the NSA) wants to have a human review any of the actual communications, they first have to go back and get a specific warrant. So was the testimony theoretically misleading to someone who does not know the proper terminology? Surely. Was it false? Apparently not. That being said, I assume most of the Congressional testimony we hear on all issues is pretty much BS or mere posturing.
In any event, after reviewing most of these postings, it is clear that most people are merely stating their opinion as to whether or not they like the program. If they do, then the leaker is a criminal. If they do not, then the government is breaking the law and the leaker is a hero. Such positions are generally falsely based. As things stand, the Patriot Act is legal. As things stand, a Constitutional Court approved the spy program, and thus, it IS Constitutional. That is the way our system works. This does not mean you need to like the law or the Court's interpretation, but it IS the law and it IS Constitutional. The remedy is to overturn the law or ask the Executive branch to not exercise its rights under the law - both of which are acceptable. People have to stop confusing their dislike of this program, or dislike of the Patriot Act, or dislike of the government, with what the law or the Constitution allows.
In addition to all of this, I find it curious that people are ok with going through X-ray machines, having their bags opened, going through pat-downs, etc. (often just to use public places), but they are outraged by a computer scanning their phone calls or Internet searches - which they claim they did not even know about anyway. I was just on a climbing trip and had every item in my carry-on backpack opened and studied, including each individual food bag, etc. It took a while. It was a pain. Yet, I told the person doing the search that I was glad they were at least being thorough. Did it make me feel that the terrorists got a small victory? Absolutely. I lost some freedom of movement. I have to get to Court earlier so my bag can be searched. This means less time doing other things. It sucks. However, it is not illegal. It is a price we pay to feel safe and be safe.
There can be no dispute that there is a fine line between balancing individual liberty and freedom versus security and safety. In making this analysis - which is quite individual - we need to consider whether we would rather be free, but scared from attacks, or lose some liberty, but feel safe. This answer may vary depending on where you live. I watched the second plane hit the Twin Towers on my way to work on 9-11. Many people in my town died that day. My wife works in NYC. I worry about future terrorist attacks, thus, I am willing to give up a little liberty to feel safe for me and my family (which I do). Someone living in a small mountain town may not have the same personal safety concern because terrorist attacks on their community may seem more remote.
Finally, if we are going to have this debate, we all need to understand that there are clearly valid views and positions on both sides of the argument. There is no clear cut solution to the liberty v. safety argument. Different strokes for different folks.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 11, 2013 - 11:06am PT
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I understand your opinion, but your modern day PAul Revere is heading into a federal pen for quite a long time.
So was Paul Revere if the Government got him.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2013 - 11:10am PT
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After massive media brainwashing over many years .....
Americans have succumbed to the Machine.
Americans have become the Machine.
Americans are now THE Machine.
The machine is run by the operator.
Americans have become the the dumb Machine under the control of its operators.
Stupid people ......
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 11, 2013 - 11:10am PT
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Why did he run to China? Why is Russia offering him asylum? Two questions that bring an odd feel to this.
They are just doing what we do all the time to them. Protecting the politically persecuted. America does political imprisonment too. But like the Chinese we like to claim the prisoner broke our law. Whether our law is just or not.
This thread makes me sick. Werner is right.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 11, 2013 - 11:15am PT
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michael, I appreciate your thoughtful replies.
As far as I know, the NSA stretched the law by collecting communication records on US citizens
without a prior warrant--with our without a machine.
Certainly, highly-paid layers will finagle down to a micro-letter that the law does not specifically
state that the NSA stretched beyond the law, but I do believe we all know the intent of the law.
Bats squeeze through 1/4" openings, and that's akin to what layers do with the law, they find ways to
squeeze through the smallest of openings to deem something legal or illegal, the letter of the
law opposed to the spirit of the law.
Why am I so concerned about the NSA leak? I don't need to worry if I don't do anything "wrong," right?
"Wrong" as in attend a peaceful protest against a war, or any other Gov't activity I may want to
stand against. Perhaps I want to show appreciation for the cause behind the Occupy movement.
And when I do, I will be labeled a terrorist and have my electronic communication combed like
Lady Gaga's hair.
"Every single time any major media outlet reports on something that the government is hiding,
that political officials don't want people to know, such as the fact that they are collecting
the phone records of all Americans, regardless of any suspicion of wrongdoing, the
people in power do exactly the same thing," Greenwald said. "They attack the media as the
messenger and they are trying to discredit the story."
And, I fully agree on your concern about climate change--it's rediculous that we have to
fight the establishment that brings us our AWG deniers. (BTW, check out http://www.tinyurl.com,
like this: http://tinyurl.com/krhsez4 ;-)
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 11, 2013 - 11:18am PT
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cyber war is lately being used as a goofy name for the ancient art of spying. Something all nations do to one another. It isn't war until it is used to do direct damage. I havn't heard that China is accused of anything more than data collection. Could be wrong.
Funny how the laws of nations allow spying via diplomatic cover but the laws for their people do not.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 11, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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China was just accused of stealing military secrets.
I suppose that is "data collection."
How about the cyber war against the nuclear research in Iran?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 11, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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heh edited at same time to include Iran
Yep just good ole spying same as we do. Cept we actually have used hacking to do damage to other nations.
America has done cyber war. Iran
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 11, 2013 - 11:27am PT
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Well, if you're a Revolutionary War buff, he's actually more similar to Benedict Arnold.
Curt
Depends what side you were on. But clearly the states were the Rebels.
There are higher laws than the written ones. as our founders clearly pointed out.
When the written law requires you to do what is wrong.
What does a good man follow?
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Jun 11, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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A quick calculation of the phone "metadata":
300 million people making 10 calls a day. We harvest source phone, destination phone, time and length. Each can be stored as a 32 bit integer, 16 bytes per call. I get 48 Gb per day; would fill my hard drive in 4 days. Have no idea how accurate 10 calls per day is.
A totalitarian government occupies every aspect of your life. We are getting there.
Snowden is a hero.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jun 11, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
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Snowden has a very hot girlfriend:
had. Now he's fleed the country and likely going to rot in a cell for the rest of his life. Meanwhile she has to deal with her private photos being shared online by pervs. Fun stuff.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 11, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
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Um...and you know, somehow, she didn't post those photos herself?
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