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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 17, 2013 - 01:24am PT
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Let's see -- scratch or paint a picture on a rock a long time ago and it becomes a resource.
Native American petroglyphs are rare, as compared to contemporary urban graffiti.
The rarer some things are, the more valuable they are. Gold is of greater value than coal.
In addition, glyphs tells us much about a subject we know relatively very little about, namely, prehistoric human beings: who and where they were, and clues to what kind of lives they lived.
Native Americans lived in the Joshua Tree environment. They were not visitors there who lived in another mileau , like modern vandals. They sought to convey something about themselves and their life and death interaction with that environment.
Modern vandals are there to deface and defile. Their handiwork tells us nothing , except that some people are devoid of values and can fail to make intelligent distinctions, and wouldn't recognize 'logic' if it was spray -painted on their ass.
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G Zeus
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 17, 2013 - 10:00am PT
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The rarer some things are, the more valuable they are.
Not necessarily. Diamonds are hardly rare. They are expensive as hell due to clever marketing.
In addition, glyphs tells us much about a subject we know relatively very little about, namely, prehistoric human beings: who and where they were, and clues to what kind of lives they lived.
Wait. What? How can we know much and relatively very little at the same time? They tell us someone marked the rocks. They do not tell us whether their contributions were even valued by their contemporaries. For all we know it was the work of native hooligan teenagers who were roundly criticized at the time. It's called prehistory for a reason.
Native Americans lived in the Joshua Tree environment. They were not visitors there who lived in another mileau , like modern vandals
Let's go restore the rocks along the oregon trail. Those damned pioneers were just passing through. How dare they?!
They sought to convey something about themselves and their life and death interaction with that environment.
Whoa, there! Ascribing motives. Danger! Danger! Glyphs don't have annotations reading, "I did this because...." They could also mean, "I'm bored." We weren't there and we can't ask.
Modern vandals are there to deface and defile.
Really? Who stated their motives. Assumptions.
Pluck someone from the distant future who can't read, plop them down at barker dam without telling them anything, and they just might assume they are at a sacred site due to all the graffiti. It's been known to happen.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 17, 2013 - 10:58am PT
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^^^
The rocks of Truth and Faith. Pretty nice tirade carved into them. Worth a walk out there on a rest day.
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Deekaid
climber
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Apr 17, 2013 - 11:11am PT
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A few good posts there Zeus and Ward. Civil (semi anyway) debate is great. The bottom line for us climbers is that it affects rock surface friction so off with their thumbs.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 17, 2013 - 11:27am PT
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and then there was that dude that wrote on those rocks way off the beaten path... (In the 30's???)...
Locker... that is a cool place, but Jon Samulson ... (SP?) wrote most of his stuff in the 20's....
I love the one about ... "... so where did all of our dough go?"
I don't think the NPS is doing a very good job of running any of our parks......I give them a C- at best.
How come they don't add more camping????
Heck they promote and market the place, then complain about "excess visitors" ....
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10b4me
Ice climber
Happy Boulders
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Apr 17, 2013 - 11:35am PT
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I don't think the NPS is doing a very good job of running any of our parks......I give them a C- at best.
Mr. Keesee, what would you like to see the NPS do differently?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 17, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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Mr. Keesee, what would you like to see the NPS do differently?
First off, quit complaining about your lack of funds..... NPS rangers get new SUV's about every year.... cut that stuff out, for starters, we can all see that every year.
Stop being "campground comandos" ... Rangers run around HVG (and others like C4) with guns looking to hassle folks. When did our parks become dangerous places?
More camping....
maybe stop trying to "manage our visit"... with stuff like LOOP ROADS, or "No Parking"...Fake adobe "Ruins".. mostly just stupid stuff that makes zero sense.
I could go on and on with my bitching but it will not do any good, why you ask 5.10B?????
Are you NPS person?????
And I don't have problems with the workers, most are just trying to do a good job and follow their dreams of working in the outdoors. Its the manigers and policy setters who I think are failing...or getting a c-.
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G Zeus
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 17, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
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Thanks for not flaming me to a crisp.
I agree closing rattlesnake canyon is an inappropriate response by the NPS. Screwing everyone for the actions of a few can't be right.
I agree the tagging looks like hell and I prefer it wasn't there, but I also know that I am making a value judgement that needs to withstand rational scrutiny.
I admit I stirred the pot a bit on purpose. I can't stand fuzzy thinking. Please don't take it personally, Mr. Trotter.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 17, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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How come they don't add more camping????
RV Lobby is stronger than outdoor gear (i.e. "Coleman") lobby?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 17, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
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As far as the cleanup goes give me a chopper for a day and I'll bring in a
nice sandblaster and it'll git done! And if we happen to find one of those
punks we'll give him a good scrubbing too.
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nutjob
Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
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Apr 17, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
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I was at Barker Dam last weekend for the first time, and I didn't notice any fences. Just an empty reservoir. There was some graffiti, but the stains on the rocks from the historical water lines was more obvious than any writing. Somewhere north on Hwy 247 there is serious painting that covers the roadside rocks. That did get my attention, and I remember thinking that I was glad it was not like that in Jtree. Funny timing.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 17, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
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Elcap.... do you really think it's the RV lobby???
When they made JT a Nat Park, one of the first things they did was remove some sites in HVCG (or that might have been just before NP status).
As "managers", who have a responsibily to manage parks in our interest, closing camping sites just dose't make sense. This has been a problem for a long time.
So Elcap, I reckon it's the Motel- Hotel operators in 29, JT, Yucca Valley and Paln Springs who pull the strings.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Happy Boulders
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Apr 17, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
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Are you NPS person?????
no, not an NPS person
And I don't have problems with the workers, most are just trying to do a good job and follow their dreams of working in the outdoors.
yet you, and others rag on the rangers all the time. granted, some LEOs are wanna be cops, and push their authority too far, but to keep harping on it gets a little old.
now, I do agree with you about a poor management policy, but the boots on the ground are only doing what they are told to do.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 17, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
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to keep harping on it gets a little old.
I'll stop harping on it when they stop f*#king doing it. It get's old harping on it? Well if gets REAL DAMN OLD experiencing it.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Happy Boulders
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Apr 17, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
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harping on it doesn't solve the problem
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 17, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
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Not necessarily. Diamonds are hardly rare. They are expensive as hell due to clever marketing.
I did not use diamonds in my comparison. I used the value comparison between gold and coal.
Wait. What? How can we know much and relatively very little at the same time? They tell us someone marked the rocks. They do not tell us whether their contributions were even valued by their contemporaries. For all we know it was the work of native hooligan teenagers who were roundly criticized at the time. It's called prehistory for a reason.
The first sentence is semantical gamesmanship that I don't want to waste time delving into further.
Yes they do tell us someone marked the rocks. Just like your birth certificate and drivers license tells us someone marked a piece of paper.
Your other comments in that paragraph are notably ignorant and uninformed and gives us an abundant clue as to why you have hitherto failed to make the critical distinction between glyphs and modern graffiti.
Whoa, there! Ascribing motives. Danger! Danger! Glyphs don't have annotations reading, "I did this because...." They could also mean, "I'm bored." We weren't there and we can't ask.
Precisely because present day researchers have thought to ascribe motives to the presence of glyphs that we have discovered important things about the culture , history, and even the historical climate of a certain region.
For instance, we know that there was a severe drought over 1000 years ago in the southwest.
We know this because of data gathered that suggests this very thing :part of the data is evidence of a contraction in the population of peoples living here and other changes. Glyphs from that time have helped to seal the deal. They are a journal of the life and death struggle I alluded to earlier.
Pluck someone from the distant future who can't read, plop them down at barker dam without telling them anything, and they just might assume they are at a sacred site due to all the graffiti. It's been known to happen.
I think we have a budding SciFi writer here.
Don't take this personal Zeus, but I don't think I've ever been confronted by someone who considers present day graffiti on the same level as prehistoric petroglyphs.
Maybe I'm overreacting.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 17, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
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lOCKER... Best not to speak of the many unique spots around JT.
The NPS might just remove them for safe keeping.... to some east coast museum.
Yea I know you got it off by ten years... but he did date his writings.
Hated the Government,
he was a teapartyer, I recon.
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G Zeus
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 19, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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Wow. Charts. I bow to your superior intellect. Buh bye.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 19, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
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You know the National Park Service, by blowing this story up in the national news, has made these the most famous taggers ever.
Their "Tags" are now the most popular tags in the world.
Now, some taggers are going to "out do them"
whats next.... tag Mt. Rushmore?
Our government
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10b4me
Ice climber
Happy Boulders
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Just heard that the canyon will be closed for another thirty days
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