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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
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Sorry about the violence getting closer to home. That's some pretty sad stuff right there. If you compare stats of the border towns El Paso Texas and Laredo, Mexico, Laredo has substantially less guns but a huge amount of gun violence in comparison. Sometimes it even spills over from Mexico to El Paso. Crazy stuff.
"And we flood Mexico with guns, legal and illegal. "
Thats bullsh#t. You have the stats or a link? Didn't think so. I've heard repeatedly that most of the illegal guns in Mexico come from Guatemala. Grenades and automatic weapons too. Of course, some get in from the US, and the US government will approval sales to the Mexican military who turn around and convert them to cash vis criminal sales. And some official US gov't approved illegals guns have gotten in as well, google "Fast and furious gunrunning". But have you ever crossed our border into Mexico? We spend 1.9 billion dollars patrolling it. It will NOT be easy. I challenge you to get a gun across it.
Fortunately, Mexico, unlike the US - has strong gun control laws. But sadly for normal civilians, only the honest people follow them, so honest people get f*#ked. F*#ked by the politicians, f*#ked by the cartel, even f*#ked by regular policemen who kidnap their loved ones to pick up a few extra bucks fro beer money. All the criminal, corrupt politicians, corrupt policmen (most of them) corrupt military (most of them) love the disarmament of the regular joes though, just like in Brazil where they have all but banned guns, are shooting the place up. It's not the guns that are the problem, again, Brazil has banned them and violence there is off the hook and off the charts. It's institutionalized poverty and corruption, and a mindset of the people.
Banning guns hasn't done sh#t.
Sorry about the violence getting closer to home.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
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See healyje's post above, and yes, I did provide a link, keep reading.
The predecessor program to Fast and Furious was started by Bush to address the problem of illegal guns going to Mexico.
Apparently Bush thought the problem was big enough to work on it.
Drugs go north to the U.S. Guns go south into Mexico. Just because it looks hard for you to do it, means nothing.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 29, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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You know when a climber dies, we first say "I'm so sorry for your loss". Some of us think: What happened?, Did the climber f*#k up?, Was he/she a stoned or a dirtbagger? . But, first we say "I'm sorry, condolences to family and friends".
just saying.
Darwin
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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Thanks monolith,, I was typing (and making dinner, multitasking they call it) as folks were posting.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
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Quote: "I also think the U.S. should go in there with the cooperation of the Mexican government and just wipe them out. They are true evil, chopping up families, women, kids, etc. Time to clean them out. "
Uhh, that ain't gonna happen soon, the evidence seems to indicate that the CIA uses drug sales to pay for other projects......so we cooperate with some and then wipe out the ones who don't cooperate. At least that is what people in the know say. The ones that are left are our bitches.
The world is a strange place.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
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Bush thought the problem was big enough to work on it.
That jackass Bush couldn't work his way out of a paper bag.
What bunch a stupid sh!t.
And he worked on it.
Good fuking work ya tool mono.
Instead ya morons it's a million times worst then ever.
Just like this stupid place.
Lots of yapping drooling and nothing ever gets done
Except !!!!!
The only thing ever gets done in the world today is it gets worst.
Stupid babbling yapping Americans .....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
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Werner said: "That jackass Bush couldn't work his way out of a paper bag.
What bunch a stupid sh!t.
And he worked on it.
Good fuking work ya tool mono.
Instead ya morons it's a million times worst then ever.
Just like this stupid place.
Lots of yapping drooling and nothing ever gets done
Except !!!!!
The only thing ever gets done in the world today is it gets worst.
Stupid babbling yapping Americans ..... "
And your solution is.......?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
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I also think the U.S. should go in there with the cooperation of the Mexican government and just wipe them out. They are true evil, chopping up families, women, kids, etc. Time to clean them out.
On the face of it hardly any of us would argue with this, But when we go in and kill, some of the dead will be innocent people. Kids, women, men just trying to feed their family. That will make us hated invaders and people will see the cartels as defending Mexico.
I read that our government's subsidy for corn production has made it impossible for Mexicans to make a living growing their primary cash crop. Whatever drugs we import from Mexico supports the cartels. We are not simon pure here.
There are things we can do, but those things hurt the interests of some in the US. Do we have the will to do it? We are part of the problem.
And we do have equally gross violence like this inside the US. Even there we don't seem to be able to agree on a course of action.
We need to stop thinking we are any different.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
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This spew from the usual politard suspects sickens me.
Have you no humanity?
Fukking self-righteous keyboard pundits.
Werner is right...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
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Coz's main point, and the most important one mentioned in this thread, is to follow the money. It doesn't matter so much where the guns are coming from. It's where the money is coming from to buy the guns, pay the bribes and pay the bad guys.
And the money is coming from us. Not just pot, but coke, meth and others.
So you guys are proposing that we invade Mexico and kick some ass, including undoubtedly a significant number of civilians as collateral damage to fix a problem that we have largely created?
If we solve the problem here, the problem there will go away.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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Yes , follow the money
Exports of military weapons to Mexico doubled from 5,232 in 2007 to 10,454 in 08 when Barry and Eric took charge.
The number climbed to almost 35,000 at the height of "Fast and Furious" and crashed back down to 2,792 when it became public.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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Couch: And your solution is.......?
Werner always has the same solution - get bitch slapped, acknowledge you're stupid, get it right in the next life...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
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The only thing ever gets done in the world today is it gets worst.
Herr Braun, that's pretty cynical. While I agree that the world is getting worse in toto, there are some things, the un-onlys, that get done all the time that are good, if not miraculous.
Just one example. A very deserving fellow just got a double arm transplant after being blown up in the war.
Iraq veteran on his double-arm transplant: 'It feels amazing'
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-veteran-double-arm-transplant-20130129,0,420604.story
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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^^ Holy sh#t.. Had no idea that could be done. Very cool thread drift.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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LOL, TGT, Fast and Furious used only 2000 guns, not the 35K+ you imply. From your numbers, it looks like F&F was ultimately a success, but they don't apply.
F&F had nothing to do with legal US domestic exports showed by your chart, so your conclusions are based on bizarre data.
BTW, Obama became president in 2009, not 2008, so your 'doubled' statement applied to Bush.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
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Orale!
As I gather from the trend here. If the U.S. made sure to distribute the weapons to the everyday people in Mexico rather than the drug pedlars, there might be a solution at hand.
I have spent no time in Mexico (Baja is not there right?), but know anthropologists who have and if I polled them all I don't think any would agree that the guns to the people approach would work.
That said.
The Magnifiicent Seven.
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckistan
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
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I'm extremely grateful for my one wonderful trip there.
Sincere condolences to the families of the murdered.
+1 for everything justthemaid said a page back. especially the emphasis she placed on her final two lines.
most of the rest of this thread is the intellectual equivalent of the blind men and an elephant story.
except to make the metaphor more poetically accurate you'd need to replace the blind men with blind starving stray dogs and the living elephant with a dead one.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:11am PT
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Climb with me in Austin, Riley!
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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Small-minded, petty-bickering BOYS.
Yuk it up, your desensitized drivel will come back to bite you in the ass one day.
Your REAL relationships must suck.
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