Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 24, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
|
No
I was referring to the statement on the first ascent with aid where it was said that it was too wide for bongs even end-wise.
I wasn't referring to the free-climbing part.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Jan 24, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
|
This doesn't hold water. Exiting out of the Zebra on Tissack half dome I stacked bongs on the overhanging wide exiting crack. On Excalibur bongs were stacked.
Maybe they didn't know how to stack or thought it was too scary. (It can be)
As Anders points out, Perry was about as hard as they come, he was also an experienced aid climber, and would not have been afraid to stack bongs. But there are at least two problems with that approach. First, you'd be hammering pins into a climb that had been approached hammerless for some time. Second, while my pin-stacking experience is from a long time ago, my memory is that it's a fiddly process that always takes two hands.
If someone would like to go up there with a hammer and a rack of bongs, I'll be glad to hang from an adjecent fixed line and take pictures. Getting hands-free on that thing and stacking bongs would be worth a couple of photographs...
D
I see Werner's talking about aid. But as Anders had already pointed out, the original line was a ways out on the face to the right.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Jan 24, 2008 - 05:56pm PT
|
Yeah, there are all sorts of types of old pro that would fit that. Climb it as an offwidth and you get a pesky bolt in your scapula every few feet, it looks like; again, I've never been there and don't know the story.
For something I do know about; anyone who wants to go to Balch Camp flake and lead "Wide world of sport" can probably do it on smaller valley giants, instead of the 11 bolts we used, (cause #5 camalots weren't big enough),you can decide whether to chop or not; does availibilty of relevent equipment mandate it's use? Interesting question, all I ask is a Trip Report and your thoughts...
Werner, is it still cheating if I have that many (or more) of that size cam, and I'm pretty sure I have taken a 50-100' runout on each one?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 24, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
|
Ha ha Jaybro
You know I'm only joking. You also know I love to joke around like that.
The more the better .......
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jan 24, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
|
Thanks Werner - I don't think Baldwin & Cooper had bongs, in 1961. They must have had stoveleg type pitons, as I've seen pictures of them using them on the Split Pillar, which goes from 1.5" to 4". In fact, Baldwin & Cooper placed two bolts beside the Split Pillar, because the crack expanded, and they weren't sure about the pins they put in it.
Perry's Lieback is wider, I think 6"+. So Baldwin & Cooper probably never considered nailing it, as they didn't have anything that would work, and stacked bongs were then far in the future. The first mention I can remember of stacked bongs is from Robbins' account of Tis-sa-ack - 1968 or 1969.
Nobody actually climbed, or tried to climb, Perry's Lieback until he did it. Free or aid. It was only a few metres left of the original upper bolt ladder, but not a likely prospect in context of the times. Perhaps Perry toproped it or something before he led it, and it seems probable that he did a little cleaning on rappel. It seems unlikely that he nailed it - easier just to climb the bolt ladder, and swing across. Not sure if he placed the bolts on aid or on rappel.
Someday someone will invent "PatchPro" - patches of different sizes that you simply press against rock, that provides instant anchors. Smaller patch = less strong. They'll look back on us prehistoric bolt, piton and nut users and laugh.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 24, 2008 - 06:08pm PT
|
Yeah Anders
They probably didn't have the right size bongs (if they had any at all) that early in time.
That would have been a fun aid lead stacking bongs on that pitch.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Jan 24, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
|
Jus yankin,' Werner!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jan 24, 2008 - 06:57pm PT
|
To add some more history, somewhere upthread Moof said: "Hit up the Kakodemon (sp?) boulder. There is a 5.13 sport "route" that is all chiseled finger pockets."
In the late 1980s, after Hilti drills appeared but before the first indoor climbing gym in the Vancouver area, a climber had the idea of creating a training route on the east side of Cacodemon Boulder. The boulder is gigantic, perhaps 30 metres high. There was no route on the back, nor did it seem likely there ever would be - it's pretty blank and steep.
As some have noticed, it rains quite a lot at Squamish. Dave thought climbers here needed somewhere to train in rainy weather. So he created a route on the boulder, using his drill. He even installed a framed plastic roof above, to keep it dry, and a bench at the base. I don't know how much it actually got used, as Vancouver got an indoor climbing gym two or three years later. It was a source of some debate at the time.
I don't remember if it was Dave who set up his "route" so it could be led, or if that was later. It's something of a one off thing - Dave is no trifler, so it was left as it was.
The correct spelling is Cacodemon, which means "horrible demon". Glenn Woodsworth's idea.
There are now some sport/free routes on various sides of Cacodemon, but none close to Dave's climb. One side is a 45 degree overhang, surrounded by other large boulders, forming quite a large protected nook. We used to camp and party there, and scramble around and tunnel through the boulders. On rainy days, we would nail the crap out of a thin crack that bisected the overhang, called Rurp Riot. Which is now more or less the line used by a sport route which they would like us to call Dream Catcher (?), which climbs the pockets we created.
Again, once PatchPro comes out, all of this will be irrelevant.
|
|
Changlama
Trad climber
Squamish, BC
|
|
|
Jan 25, 2008 - 12:16pm PT
|
Here's one of Ed Cooper's photos of Jim Baldwin prussiking the fixed lines on the lower portion of the Stawamus Chief.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 25, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
|
"tell me please who owns 5 #4 Camalots or equivalent?"
Got:
#4 friend
#3.5 old camalot
#4 C4
#4 old camalot
#5 friend
#5 C4
#5 old camalot
#6 friend
#9 you know who
So I think ~4 of those loosely count? Gotta go buy more...
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Jan 25, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
|
For something I do know about; anyone who wants to go to Balch Camp flake and lead "Wide world of sport" can probably do it on smaller valley giants, instead of the 11 bolts we used, (cause #5 camalots weren't big enough),you can decide whether to chop or not; does availibilty of relevent equipment mandate it's use? Interesting question, all I ask is a Trip Report and your thoughts...
My thoughts: I'd be clipping them...
but you know me. Yer such a card Jaybro.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Jan 25, 2008 - 05:52pm PT
|
jus sayin' could be done is all
|
|
scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
|
|
|
Jan 25, 2008 - 07:11pm PT
|
Here are some of the ingredients in my Starter Rack:
3 #4 Friends
1 #4 Purple Camalot
1 #4 Black Camalot
2 #5 Friends
3 #6 Friends
Nothing really big, and I probably could use more
#4 Camalots.
Any of you C4 converts want to unload older pieces,
keep me in mind.
|
|
Chief
climber
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2009 - 04:30am PT
|
I'm new to the Super Topo forum and had heard about this thread for some time. I'm the guy that did the first ascent of the bolted lieback in question and, given the odious references to Canadian ethics and my sexual orientation feel compelled to reply.
The crack was a topic of conversation for some time back in the late seventies as we were all working on eliminating the aid from the original Grand Wall route. I had gotten to the base of the left side free via Merci Me (Although Putnam and Loeks are rumored to have gotten to the Pillar free, there's no confirmation anyone did this before I did). Eric Weinstein had already freed the right side and if Nick Taylor didn't do the left side first, Bill Price definitely did a good job. The Sword had been freed by George Manson and Tom Gibson. I recruited Greg Cameron to go up the left side and then to try the offwidth. We brought along some tubes and a couple six inch bongs but Greg threw them off the top of the Pillar (he said he dropped them). Greg climbed over to the offwidth and checked it out. Having soloed the Lost Arrow Chimney and the FFA of Pipeline, I respected both Greg's abilities and opinion on wide cracks. He thought the crack would be a real bitch straight on and hard to protect with tubes. He agreed that the pitch would be a lot more enjoyable as a layback and probably a bit more in keeping with the flavor of the rest of the route. I kicked the idea around with the rest of the gang and it seemed to have some acceptance.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the original Baldwin Cooper bolt ladder started right of the bottom of the crack and finished in the top of the crack. I rationalized that moving the six or so aid bolts closer to the lieback would be a good compromise allowing people to either free or aid past the crack. I hand drilled 1/4" Rawls on lead, then pulled my rope and lead it free. For all the flapping about how retrograde my actions were, to this day I don't know of anyone who has dragged big cams up there and lead it free. It gets climbed all the time and I see lots of people lobbing off or hanging on the bolts.
Werner, you should check in on Valley ethics and history before you call anyone a homo for their approach to climbing in their area. Chopped holds on Outer Limits and Freestone, bolts beside the Burner and Wheat Thin stand out as glaring examples of the hypocrisy and inconsistency in your much vaunted "Yosemite ethics". The comments and threats posted in this thread are fighting words in my part of the world so bring an appetite for knuckle sandwiches along with your crowbar if your keen on a bolt chopping road trip to Squamish.
Perry Beckham
Squamish BC
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2009 - 11:25am PT
|
I suspect that Werner was joking Perry, the longer you are around here you'll learn that on these ethics ranting issues where the local Yosemite villagers want to march off and burn some offender at the stake threads: Werner is often the guy calling for reason. Go look up the Scott Cosgrove thread reaming Doug Robinson on the new 1/2 Dome route. It may be one of the longest threads on ST.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=566859&tn=0&mr=0
Thanks for checking in and sharing the history !!!!
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
|
I had missed this thread.
Tx for the post, Perry.
Tons o bolts on the original Grand Wall line. Moving that one aid ladder over to the wide probably reduced visual impact rather than making it worse. At one point, there was a knotted fixed rope on the original ladder so that you could just batman that section and leave the aiders home.
And the original ladder was something less than a work of art. By the time I did it, plenty of bad rusting studs.
Had Grand been a free climb originally-- or had the FA party aided that wide on stacks -- i imagine things might've been different.
|
|
Climbing dropout
Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
|
Perry,
Bravo man ... let her rip !
You did the right thing, both then, and now.
Bruce MacDonald
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
|
This is sort of a mini, more easily digestible version of a WoS or SFHD thread.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2009 - 03:34am PT
|
You did the right thing, both then, and now.
No sh#t. As Perry says, anyone who wants to drag a load of giant cams (or bongs to stack) is welcome to do so, but for everybody else he made the route better, not worse, by replacing a bolt ladder with a bolt-protected free pitch.
David Harris
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!