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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
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Maybe we could use a a few less soldiers guarding dead people during hurricanes and few more more soldiers guarding our embassies against terrorists. I'm just sayin'.
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John M
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
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John M...
That is your opinion.
You make it sound like you disagree that it is part of a citizens duty to make certain our soldiers lives are not wasted heedlessly. I can understand your disagreeing with what constitutes heedlessness, but I don't understand why you would disagree that it is every citizens duty to do what they can to keep our soldiers lives from being wasted.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
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But, and far more importantly, it is the individual Servicemembers personal choice to do so.
Not really, its the decision of the civilian government, elected by the people and influenced by all citizens, to deem where it is appropriate to send soldiers and how to direct the military.
Like any other job you are given some choice of what to do, but in the end, its not the soldiers decision whether its a reasonable post to keep him at.
On the other hand Military tradition has its place as an important institutional tool and I recognize that.
In other words, I'd say that if the guard died on his post, he was honorable in serving, but his civilian and military leadership failed him by keeping him in harms way for something that is only symbolically important.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
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Jim, every Midshipman learns the value of good discipline from day one and
it is in the inimitable form of The Gunny. :-)
I am not disagreeing with you about heroism. I only stated that rigid
discipline is not its font. In naval history the ships of flogging captains
often fought very poorly.
I would aver that a person who demonstrates heroism and camaraderie above
and beyond the normal call will continue to do so throughout their life
because they had it in the first place.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
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Precisely why I believe we should have a universal draft with no exemptions aside from medical. If our lawmakers had children in harms way they would be a little more prudent in their actions.
edit: Reilly, I didn't say that rigid discipline was THE reason for heroic action but that it can be a factor along with a myriad of other things.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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They are the ones that decided that by volunteering for that duty. Not a pistola one was pointed at their heads saying you MUST. That IS the honor.
I'm not arguing that, but it wasn't their choice to stay out there. In the end they are at the direction of their military and civilian leaders, who should, at least in theory, have the foresight not to put them in unnecessary danger.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
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Yep exactly,
Both are ultimately failures of civilian and military leadership not the soldiers or civilian servants that died
I don't really see your point though. Are you agreeing with me?
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John M
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
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According to the Society of The Old Guard’s website, Tomb Sentinels “are completely dedicated to their duty of guarding the Tomb. Because of that dedication, the weather does not bother them. In fact, they consider it an honor to stand their watch (we call it “walking the mat”), regardless of the weather. It gets cold, it gets hot – but the Sentinels never budge. And they never allow any feeling of cold or heat to be seen by anyone.”
The Society is an alumni association for the more than 400 soldiers who have earned the Sentinel badge since 1958.
The website for The Society says that despite their commitment, the welfare of the soldier is never put at risk: “The Tomb Guards have contingencies that are ready to be executed IF the weather conditions EVER place the Soldiers at risk of injury or death — such as lightning, high winds, etc. This ensures that Sentinels can maintain the Tomb Guard responsibilities while ensuring soldier safety. It is the responsibility of the Chain of Command from the Sergeant of the Guard to the Regimental Commander to ensure mission accomplishment and soldier welfare at all times.”
This answers my question. They had contingencies in place for the protection of the soldiers if the storm got too dangerous.
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John M
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
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Yep..
Whatever..
Sorry that you feel that way. I do the best that I can to understand your position.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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Honor and Integrity personified
Not everything associated and attributed with these two great personalities (Honor and Integrity) can always be seen with the naked eye.
This where John M fails to understand ......
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John M
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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Werner.. I thought that the picture implied that they stood out there no matter how dangerous the situation was. It appears that they don't, so I was correct.
but you are correct. what the f*#k do I know about honor or integrity..
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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Since we are recognizing honor and integrity, we should also recognize all the people who have rushed into danger the past 48 hours to keep citizens safe, including the coast guard crew Chief pointed out, firefighters, police officers, EMTs, doctors, nurses, utility crews, and countless others.
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John M
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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Chief, it appears that you and I are arguing two different points. I was arguing that they shouldn't be outside if the weather is too dangerous. It appears that the military agrees with me.
The website for The Society says that despite their commitment, the welfare of the soldier is never put at risk: “The Tomb Guards have contingencies that are ready to be executed IF the weather conditions EVER place the Soldiers at risk of injury or death — such as lightning, high winds, etc. This ensures that Sentinels can maintain the Tomb Guard responsibilities while ensuring soldier safety. It is the responsibility of the Chain of Command from the Sergeant of the Guard to the Regimental Commander to ensure mission accomplishment and soldier welfare at all times.”
They can still complete their mission.
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John M
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
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I stand corrected. They can still fulfill their daily assignment.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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As you know Chief and Ron, it is what they do everyday, without hesitation. Utterly amazing.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 30, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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Ya know, we have very few national shrines to the fallen in this country. Arlington and the Tomb, the Arizona Memorial, and the Wall come to mind as the most powerful. I’m curious if NYC’s Ground Zero will pack the emotional punch it once did after the new buildings are up.
Remembrance, ceremony, and ritual are parts of every culture, huh?
g
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Oct 30, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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I have never served in the military; but live in a military town.
One thing I have heard often from both active and retired officers; is that if you plan on working your way up the command ladder with finesse, an unspoken requirement is serving your time on the Honor Guard.
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