Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 01:58am PT
|
Take it easy on leopop...that was their first (troll) post....
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 02:24am PT
|
lol. Hook, line and sinker.
You calling us pompous ....
Speak for yourself. I EMBODY pompous....ness....iousity, and work damn hard to keep it.
|
|
snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 02:42am PT
|
Man- if there was no tuolumne sar I'd have to go back to illegal bivys again.
I agree- too many people don't have the skillz the should- but I'm also glad that all my sar and paramedic buddies have work!
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 03:06am PT
|
I agree, many people are unaccustomed to climbing at tahquitz early on. I plan to remedy this by bitching quite loudly on a number of message boards, as divisively as possible, and hope that rather than be offended the suckling little noobs will bend to my will and become rock jocks.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 09:30am PT
|
I'm glad the guys who had the accident are OK. There was some harsh banter early in this thread. Give these guys a break - turns out they didn't call for rescue until the guy passed out. Sure, better decisions could have been made but sh#t happens.
Aye aye to Dave and Alois ^^^
There is simply a greater density of climbers with a lower skill set out there these days. More accidents are going to happen. Tahquitz is serious. Route-finding... especially on some of the long moderates is extremely difficult. People are lulled by easy ratings and it is not a beginner's area.
Anyone who joins SAR knows the deal and accepts the job. For every Vegas-guy dangling and having a seizure and off-route broken leg there are going to be yahoos calling because their feet hurt. Comes with the territory. I do believe climbers should acquire self rescue skills and not rely on SAR. SAR should definitely have the discretion to charge people for negligence.
Side Story: Years ago I had a climbing partner got off route.. on Angel's Fright.. into 5.10 territory... and fell... and broke his leg... probably in the same spot. He later regretted not just leaving a bail anchor and getting off the thing. $100 worth of gear left would have saved years of pain, $ and therapy.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:04am PT
|
That was some Funny, focused, erudite, skewering, Gdavis!
Poignant, informative and helpful words as well, Em
|
|
ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:11am PT
|
I agree, many people are unaccustomed to climbing at tahquitz early on. I plan to remedy this by bitching quite loudly on a number of message boards, as divisively as possible, and hope that rather than be offended the suckling little noobs will bend to my will and become rock jocks.
Well played, sir!
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
|
"There are more climbers today, there are more rescues."
"There is simply a greater density of climbers with a lower skill set out there these days."
Like many other ST greybeards, my immediate reaction is to conclude the latter, but a little bit of rational consideration makes me wonder if it isn't as simple as the former. Probably a combination of both.
|
|
Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
|
Maybe what some of us learned from the old timers that tought us could help some of the readers here. This is what I was told repeatedly when I was just a teen (ages ago)
"Never - not even for a second - think that rescue is an option. Rescue is totally opposite to safety. Once we need rescue, we already screwed up big time and passed the threshold of disaster. Expecting to be rescued is totally irresponsible. Nobody owes us rescue. Let’s use our own backcountry sense and skills to make the kind of decisions that will make rescue unnecessary".
BTW I understand that accidents and problems happen. Climbing is a dangerous activity. But I'm very alarmed with the frequency of accidents on Tahquitz. I think Kris nailed it. It is not easy to follow the Tahquitz guidebooks when you never studied the crag's major features from a distance. People, especially the young climbers, please be careful out there!
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
|
New question/statement: SAR gives people a un-realistic portrail [sic] of SAFTY [sic] in climbing.
If we can refocus from blame to guyman's hypothesis, I strongly disagree with that statement at places like Tahquitz. I don't think anyone thinks "Oh, I can fall and suffer serious injury but I'll be OK because SAR is here." The real fallacy is the belief that climbing is inherently safe if the climber "follows all the rules."
In the primitive days when I started climbing -- decades before climbing gyms or sport climbs existed, I actually believed that climbing was relatively safe, if you placed proper protection, knew how to belay and rappel, used good equipment, etc. Then I started reading Accidents in North American Mountaineering and saw fatalities that could only be prevented by not falling, or not being on the mountain at the wrong time. A year or two after I started climbing, Madsen died rappelling, and Harding and Rowell had to be rescued from Half Dome, and I learned that excellent, experienced climbers were perfectly capable of making mistakes "only a beginner could make."
I remember the discussions about how the existence of rescues made big walls devoid of adventure in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Maybe they did, but it's too late now. As mucci implies, if we refuse to rescue someone in the name of preserving "purity" of the sport, we're condemning people to death to preserve our recreation. I find that immoral.
In truth, I think the biggest enemy of adventure in climbing is knowledge. When I started, we were so few that just leading 5.4 (e.g. Angel's Fright) could be something done in isolation, and a step into the unknown. Now, climbing on El Capitan is rather like climbing at a small popular crag; it is neither solitary nor unknown.
The problem isn't the presence of rescue. It's the absence of experience. Lest we get too smug, remember our own beginning experiences. The best summary of mine was given by someone else (I don't remember who [sorry]): "Good training, if one survives."
John
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
|
"I don't think anyone thinks "Oh, I can fall and suffer serious injury but I'll be OK because SAR is here." "
I'm sure that's the case...human beings, even in this day & age, have a pretty intact sense of self-preservation and generally try to avoid injuring themselves.
Once injured, however, it's the availability of rescue that probably makes the call for rescue so much more common these days...and many times, it's hard to blame someone for resisting that option, esp. when they are in pain, and don't have the knowledge or skills to try and deal with it themselves.
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
|
I know this is just a tiny thing but it's kind of bugging me:
(io) capisco - I understand
(tu) capisci? - Do you understand? (to a friend)
(Lei) capisce - Do you understand? (more formally)
Em, I was with Daphne on her epic day from hell, and have never spoken about it, as it only her story to tell. But that has kept me from giving her public praise for the MOST AMAZING grit determination butt-crab walking descent for almost a mile over steep rocky terrain. And it has kept me from giving public thanks to the two wonderful passing climbers who gave up their day on the rock to help us with what we needed most - a second rope to do the unexpected 3 raps down to the ground. And to the other party of three who caught up with us on the descent and their leader, an army ranger who carried Daphne the remaining half mile uphill to the parking lot. Accident around noon - out of the ER at about midnight. What a day!
Phyl
|
|
Lord Wolf
Trad climber
west hills, CA
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
|
I was on suicide rock and watched them attempt to rescue the climber, We went into town for burgers and beer and ran into the man who broke his ankles, he told me he wandered into jonah and took the fall, it was his son, not the resuce workers that got him to the base of the crag. His son told me that a week prior he had been practicing self rescue in the trees in his backyard. Kudos to the young man who got his father out of that mess. on monday though we were on suicide and watched another chopper trying to get someone off the wall, couldnt tell if he did or not, does anyone know what happened?
|
|
Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
|
While I'm all for the self-reliance thing, I'd be willing to bet that guyman has never been seriously injured while climbing and in need of a rescue.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
|
While I'm all for the self-reliance thing, I'd be willing to bet that guyman has never been seriously injured while climbing and in need of a rescue.
I have been with Guy when he was injured in a very remote place and he self rescued (a brief description of this event is posted upthread or you can read about it here.) Granted his injury was not the kind where you bleed out and die, but were that the case then he would have died as help was not readily available. His injury did make it very difficult to get off the wall, after which he had to hike 12 miles, much of it off trail in steep rugged terrain, while disabled and in pain.
His knee was the size of a melon. Many people would have stayed put and let their partner go out and arrange for a helo. It would have been a 36 hour wait minimum.
Guy is a friend of mine. He tends to say things with emphasis to make his point. I think he and I agree that in recent years, especially for a variety of reasons at Tahquitz, the number of SAR events has gotten out of control. So be safe up there folks.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
|
I'm sure that's the case...human beings, even in this day & age, have a pretty intact sense of self-preservation and generally try to avoid injuring themselves.
I'll be honest, a few times in my career proximity to a possible rescuer has a part to play. I won't necessarily take MORE risks closer to a SAR, but I'll take far LESS if I am deep in Mexico (Pico de Orizaba - or did I just pussy you? YOU BE THE JUDGE!)
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
|
^^^^
You need to go back and read earlier portions of this thread. Sounds like Guyzo endured a major epic to self rescue.
Another issue this thread raises, but which hasn't been discussed, is the willingness of other climbers to put aside their plans for the day and help injured climbers if possible. Back when Williamson was still open, a young lady named Anya (or something like that) broke her ankle on a lead fall. Me and a group of seven or eight other climbers stuck her in the litter and schlepped it out to the highway. It was grim, but she got back to her car without waiting hours for a chopper and got a comfy ride to the hospital in her friend's car.
I suspect that most of folks who have urged greater compentency as a means of avoiding rescue have very likely been in the same situation where they've participated in one, either by saving their own bacon or informally helping someone avoid the chopper ride. I didn't form my opinions in an armchair. I formed them in the field.
|
|
Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
|
I don't think anyone thinks "Oh, I can fall and suffer serious injury but I'll be OK because SAR is here."
People totally think like this. If you don't have cell phone serivce and are deep in backcountry you will prolly be more carefull than if you are at a roadside crag where if you get hurt you'll be rushed to the hospital in 30 mins.
Same sh#t with skiing and snowboarding. If you are in the BC, you're gonna be more carefull than if you are at a resort with ski patrol.
But I'm all down for SAR cuz sometimes sh#t does happen, but it should be a last resort after you've done everything you can.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
|
^^^^
yups.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!