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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 11, 2006 - 11:47am PT
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I've always had a relatively positive view of Dean Potter. Until now. If you want the thing you're told you can't have, well, that's awkward. There are ways to deal with it. Video-taping it and proclaiming loudly to the world what you've done is not one of them.
Any of you who think that climbing Delicate Arch is some kind of expression of personal freedom and oneness with the natural world are fooling yourselves. There was nothing "extreme" or impressive about this ascent. It was a thumbing of the nose at the NPS and other land managers, who, like it or not, the climb ing community has to deal with. If we do things to blatantly piss them off, it will cause us problems in the future.
Then someday we'll complain "why is climbing banned in National Parks?" and the answer will be because some of us (yes, climbers are "us," so far as "they" are concerned, whether you like it or not) thought we could get a cheap shot in way back when.
And to answer the recurring question "how is this different from banging on El Cap with a hammer?" I can only respond that you've obviously never touched desert sandstone. 100 people a day climbing Delicate Arch would destroy the thing, at the very least visually, and possibly physically as well. 100 people banging on el cap with a hammer everyday has done, well, very very little overall.
"A few grains of sand" keeps being mentioned as the only cost of climbing Delicate Arch. Maybe for you. But it's a few for every single person who climbs it, and it doesn't take long at all for the traffic to have a very real physical impact on the rock. This stuff is delicate, hence the name.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 11, 2006 - 11:52am PT
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I'm flying my mud falcon tomorrow..Anybody know where I can find some NPS employee's?
i'm your huckleberry.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 12:07pm PT
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And if he won't do....
You're a daisy if you do.
(also, well said Forest)
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RocaLibre
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 11, 2006 - 12:14pm PT
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Very interesting,
I used to live in the states and now I am in Mexico, something that distinguishes the two countries is the enormous system on Parks in the US and the apparent respect that people in general seem to have for them. All my climbing friends in the states seemed to be very proud of some of them parks and even "respected" their idiosyncrasies (at least in the daylight). Here in Mexico there are parks and some of them have climbing, but you see an utter disrespect for ethics or even common sense, grid bolting, piles of trash, and a general sense that the resource is there for you to use indiscriminately. I think if we had some untouchables that become symbols, that would be ingrained in people’s minds and is a seed of pride in their parks. You need to see an arch without a million f*#ks in it. Climbing is great because its high sense of aesthetics, we love to climb great looking pices of rock, but we hate to see a conga line in the route we want, we love the valley but hate the tourist, well, Potter just behaved like a touron.
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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May 11, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
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Could it be that Dean was trying to get arrested so that he could fight the climbing/slacklining ban in court?
If that is the case, then my opinion on the matter would change.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 11, 2006 - 12:29pm PT
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"I know 3 people, pesonally, that have climbed Shiprock."
Sure, and I know folks who've climbed Devil's Tower, Cave Rock, and so on. [And I mention these two formations specifically because they are off limits from a native-american point of view, but are "legal" from a US-law viewpoint.] Usually the ascents of sacred sites are done on the sly and the climbers don't feel they're knocking any spirits around by trekking on the formations. (Mount Kalias is a notable example of where climbers have restrained themselves.)
As far as sacred formations are concerned, one group will claim that a formation is sacred, another will claim that their religion is climbing and making ascents is how they worship.
If you [Dingus] say "Climbers are not allowed to climb my house" and Werner mocks you by posting a photo of himself swinging from your chimney by a lasso and claims he's not a climber but a cowboy with a lust for roping bricks, you'd probably get pissed (or just laugh your ass off).
What's the point here? It's that people usually don't like to have sand thrown in thier face. In our climbing community, we see ourselves as indivuduals. Those outside our community see us as a group. When an individual in our group acts, it reflects on our whole group.
Pass the mustard, please...
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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May 11, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
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Re: "Could it be that Dean was trying to get arrested so that he could fight the climbing/slacklining ban in court? "
Good luck with that one. NPS is clearly authorized to manage 'their' 'resource' as they see fit.
You know, I like Dean, but every now and then he does something really dumb. Doing things that reflect badly on a perceived interest group to which one belongs doesn't exactly set him apart, but that's no excuse.
When you want to live your life as if the rules don't apply to you, you sometimes create effects that extend beyond your particular case. This is something that is painful to learn, much less to re-learn over and over. Hopefully it sticks.
And hey, if Gucci drops him, he can return to that true state of soul-climber union with vibrating nature he's always going on about in the catalog copy. By himself. Undocumented.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 11, 2006 - 01:00pm PT
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Does anyone know what their stated rationale for prohibiting climbing on named formation is, in the first place?
Liability?
Preservation?
Bojed photo opps?
"it's wrong"
other?
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mtn
climber
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May 11, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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Re: "Could it be that Dean was trying to get arrested so that he could fight the climbing/slacklining ban in court? "
Could it be that Dean does these things to get them banned so that he is the first and last to do such things and get recognition for them?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 01:28pm PT
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Just because it has a name on a map is no reason to place it off limits, but Delicate Arch, c'mon.
Even I knew enough to leave THAT one alone.
The rock in Arches, while being very fine grained (which is GOOD for durability), is unfortunately very poorly cemented. The bonding material that holds those silica crystals together has very little strength.
In the perhaps not too distant future climbers will be forced to recognize that compromises will have to be made. When the resource degrades SO easily we will be left with little to climb unless we show a certain degree of restraint.
Reaching an agreement as to WHERE that degree is to be found will certainly be a challenge, but clearly the effects of repeated performances of this nature would result in wearing down of an icon as shoe wear, hold breakage and grooves from rope retrieval would all be cumulative.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 11, 2006 - 01:36pm PT
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Ron, I've climbed in Arches (Not DA!) and recognize the reasons you state. I was wondering what the offical word is. I suspect it is not as conservation minded as our reasons are.
Not to say that preservation isn't of some importance to the powers that be, there; I have been to the 'Firey Furnace,' and seen the movie and been quized, before I was deemed 'responsible' enough to hike in that area.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
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Tell him Ron says hi to him and Steph.
Ask him if he's read the threads and whether or not he feels that perhaps this was more of a loser than a winner in light of the (ahem, cough cough) exposure.
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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May 11, 2006 - 03:12pm PT
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Tell him: He is a self centered ASS, and he should stick to slacklining.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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May 11, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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OK, I will copy and paste right off this site. Fire away! Seriously, I know his wife is going to be at Smith, suppose Potter will be with her.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 11, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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HOW EXACTLY DID HE GET OFF THE THING, AND HOW DID HE AVOID ANY IMPRESSIONS FROM THE ROPE?
(oops, caps lock) why not just downclimb and jump onto pads?
did pattagucci know in advance?
why did he think it was legal?
why did he make it so public w/out even checking if it was legal?
would he do the same thing again, or would he do it quietly instead?
why didn't he rig a killer hammock swing under that thing?
(wouldn't need fixed anchors for that either)
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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May 11, 2006 - 03:35pm PT
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Matt- There's a few links to news articles in Part 1 that answer your questions.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 11, 2006 - 09:01pm PT
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Maybe I can get Patagonia to sponsor my next ‘environmentally friendly’ dirt bike extravaganza! Time trials from Happy Isles to Merced Lake… Only two-strokes allowed; trench-digging 500s preferred. Bonus points for mowing down stupid tourons. $20 entry fee required; winner takes all (but cash prize will be paid in beer (of your choice)). The cameras will be rolling… let’s see what you throttle heads have got!!!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 11, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
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i think it's time for this thread to go away. nothing new has been said since the first few posts, and mr. potter can make his peace with the nps and patagonia it whatever manner he sees fit.
as for myself, i'm going to get in my car and endure the 12 minute drive to the best limestone roof climbing on the planet.
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2006 - 09:23pm PT
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No you're not.
It's now prohibited.
Limestone has been declared protected, to make tonics in drinks.
Against the new rulez, bad boy Bob.
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 12, 2006 - 12:56am PT
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Ask him what Jimmy (Dunn) thinks about his gig on the DA???
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