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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Aug 19, 2012 - 01:34am PT
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Karl,
Careful on the slope you are on. We as a society have established our arbitrary rules, and that is what we go by. Looking too far behind the curtain and you really have to question why we don't accept cannibalism, and a host of other ideas we find repugnant.
Was Jeffery Dahmer any worse than someone who eats bacon? In a cosmic sense, maybe not, but we would not have a functioning society if not for our rules and values. It is best to keep some perspective as to where some of these vital come from, lest you succumb to blind dogma (no pun intended, honset) after the rules and norms no longer are needed. We value our pets very highly, and would even think badly of anyone who would leave livestock (even walking bacon) stranded for over a week without food, water, and necessary medical attention.
my $0.02
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 19, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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This just goes to show how most SAR guys are always chomping at the bit to go do SOMETHING. I remember the old days in the SAR site where a long period without work had so many people broke that they nigh prayed for an operation.
You hear a lot about how people put SAR guys at risk, but from what my experience shows, they live for this stuff, especially if actual operations were your only income.
Kind of like the hotshot firefighter crews. I have yacked with enough of them to know that they like a lot of work. They understand risk.
I know for damn sure that if Shipley or The Fish or even Werner in the old days would have jumped at the chance to go rescue a sweater off of El Cap. Money in the bank and some good stories...
Way better than the endless body recoveries from Vernal Falls.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Aug 19, 2012 - 02:38am PT
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I'm definitely NOT defending this dude or his actions, but I want to question the ideas that some here have about other cultures and their attitudes and actions towards dogs...
If I remember right, when Dennis Hennek came back from his first Baffin Island trip (with Rob Wood, Doug Scott, etc.), about 1973, he brought back the story that the Eskimos there prioritized the efforts they would put into "rescues" in the Far North. I don't remember the whole list, but I think that #4 was children; #3 was Wives; #2 was dogs; #1 was Themselves and other men. Interesting... No judgements intended here.
I'll PM Hennek and ask him to clarify this one.
Also, all over Polynesia and many other areas, people ate their dogs...
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 08:46am PT
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NOTE: I HAVE HAD A CHANGE IN HEART TOWARDS MISSY'S OWNER & IF ANYONE READS ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO THIS HERE POST OF MINE -- PLEASE READ THE VERY END/LAST PART OF IT (III) -- THANK YOU!!
(I)
Was Jeffry Dahmer any worse than someone who eats bacon? In a cosmic sense, maybe not, but we would not have a functioning society if not for our rules and values.
I beg to differ! I believe we would not have a functioning society, if not for our conscience! Namely, the aspect of conscience known as guilt.
I try and pay strict and obedient attention to it. I am not always successful, no one is 100% of the time, but there is usually additional opportunities to get it right. But it can become dulled and silenced. that is pretty obvious in the society we live in. I can only listen to my conscience and follow and obey it. I can't be someone else's. And as a society, I do believe many of our rules and values are a result of our conscience.
And, something one of you said, reminded me of how and why I eventually stopped eating chicken, and applied this to the probable inhumane treatment of most, if not all farm animals. And am for the most part a vegetarian now. Some will prollie think i am nuts after i tell this story, but ya already prollie think I am anyway, so...
I was pulling on to the freeway once about 15-20 yrs ago and found myself behind this open-bed 18 wheeler with these wire cages ten feet or so high across the whole length and width of this big rig. They were filled with chickens. The chickens were practically flattening each other out, they were packed so tight. They could not move at all. Just their heads could move a little from one side to the other, but not much. It was rush hour and the traffic was stop and go. The way they were packed in there was, obviously, very troubling to me. But what was even more troubling, was the fear I saw in them, their eyes and the frenzied movement of their heads. It was almost palpable, very sad! It is not something I can describe or explain.
But, regarding my conscience, i know when my heart is being spoken to. I know what I saw was wrong. I do not feel that eating chicken is wrong. I personally do not believe in reincarnation. But I do believe that the inhumane treatment of animals of any sort, is wrong. I do not care what any one thinks about what I have said or what I am about to say. I do believe that my personal God was telling me that He was not happy about what I saw. And He let me know. In my heart/conscience.
And I believe He also let me know what He felt I personally should do about it. I couldn't do much. Certainly not force my feelings or belief about it on anyone else in regards to it. What I experienced and saw was only for me, and this is the first time I have said anything to anybody in regards to it. I can only be responsible and accountable for how I responded to it
(II)
As far as cannibalism goes. I do know of five young men in their mid-twenties and fresh out of a Christian college who went down to the jungles of Ecuador to encounter a fierce headhunting tribe (the Huaorani/Waodani) who had a penchant for killing anyone who came within its tribal boundaries. Ultimately beheaded them and ate them.
They had hoped to convert them. And were willing to give their lives, if necessary, for this to come about. That was indeed the case. They could have easily killed the 5-6 guys that slew them with spears and machetes. They had several Remington 700's high powered semiautomatic rifles that they carried to defend themselves from the large crocs that would attempt to overturn their dugout or come at them from the banks, or whatever.
They had successfully contacted them (tribe) after many flyovers in their small plane dropping food & gifts etc.! And they also eventually met with this handful of tribesman (small part of the tribe) on a number of occasions. But, ultimately and at the same place they always came to receive the gifts from the missionaries, the missionaries camp, they slew them. Their wives waited for them in their small cabin they had built were they lived with their young children, but they did not return one day.
Like i said, they could have easily defended themselves, but it would have required that they take at least one if not all of their lives. They had already come to the conclusion that if they had done that, no one would ever be able to reach them with the story of unconditional love and salvation from their God who said it was wrong to kill another human being, etc.! And at best, they would respond to them only out of fear, not love.
And, they were depending that God would convict the hearts of these headhunters through their conscience and guilt so they could eventually reach them, blah, blah, blah!
Anyway, the wives, after their husbands were killed, prayed that God would send someone to replace them in bringing His message to them. After a year of praying and no one came to replace them, one of the wives came to the conclusion that it was her that God wanted to go to the tribes people. She did go and live with them and brought her two young kids and eventually a large portion the tribe was converted and they were also personally convicted that what they were doing, killing/headhunting, was wrong. Their hearts were changed. And much to the joy of the surrounding peoples who themselves were peaceful but greatly feared the the headhunters for good reasons.
This was back in the 1956! I read the book around 1981 and in 1982 one of their young tribesmen (18 y.o.) came to our church to speak. He was also in the US because he was in the process of translating one of the last books in the NT into his language.
BTW, they said that the main reason that they came to let her live with them and didn't kill her was because she had told them about how their husbands could have killed them but allowed them to live and they said it was a powerful message of love and had convicted them of what they had been doing and they wanted to know their God and receive His forgiveness, blah, blah, blah!! And her and her two kids lived with them in the jungle none stop for a number of years!
It is a great book that they eventually made a movie of back about 5-6 yrs ago: "Through Gates of Splendor" by Elisabeth Elliot (the one who went to live with the tribe)!
Two of the mens names, in case you want to google them were: Jim Elliot (Portland, Oregon) & Nate Saint, a pilot.
The name of the movie is: End of the Spear (2006)
(III)
And, I know what this is all about in that you (somebody who posted recently) said that some of us have been displaying a double standard and your right. Furthermore, my conscience has been affected and I need to confess it and ask for forgiveness, so...
I was way to harsh with "d00d" (Misty's owner). Even though what he did was very wrong from what I have heard about it. Furthermore, if it is true I believe the God I know and serve also believes it was very wrong. But He will certainly forgive him for it if he asks for His forgiveness! And as far as I go, i have to forgive him for what he has done no matter what he says about it to anyone, so I do! And, evidently he already said he was very sorry, that really should be enough for any of us, particularly me. So, I must, at this point, ask "d00d" for forgiveness, because i really did overreact and their is no excuse or reason for that. And I have asked for and been forgiven for a whole lot of stuff in my life, some pretty pathetic things throughout my life, so once again, please forgive me "d00d" (sorry, I don't know your real name).
Also, I don't really believe you have a "psyche" problem like I mentioned on a previous post. I had really felt like saying that you had a spiritual problem (we all do) but new i would have gotten a shitload of crap (& prollie now will, but no longer give a damn) from some people who frequent this thread so I took the safe and easy way out and said "psyche" problem instead...sorry about that if you are reading this ( for some reason, I feel that you are and have been).
Once again, I feel as though we have been very hard on you (particularly me). I hope you forgive me at least, i was way out of line. And, you must really do love Missy, if you truly want her back after all of this. And i know that she must really love you. I really do not know anything about you other than what i have heard here. And it is not up to me to make the decision as to whether or not you should get her back. But if it was up to me, I would say yes, you deserve another chance.
My name is John, please contact me at my email (j.f.m.8@hotmail.com) if you so desire!! Or just clickon my name/Icon (splitter) & which will take you to my Profile & on the right side click on (Send Email To Splitter) Thanks!
PEACE!!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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Sounds reasonable to me. That is if they let it live out its natural age. Nothing wrong with eating it once it dies. For that matter, they can eat it whenever they want. It's their dog. Their culture, none of my business. If they are cool with it, why should I care. That is, as long as the do it in a humane way. I wouldn't, as I already said. And I don't believe anyone within our society/culture should(kill them before their time). Unfortunately there are dead dogs all over the place. People kill dogs for the hell of it, puppies, runts of the litter, cats, and their own kids if they can get away with it!
One of the local surfers back in the day, kicked his girlfriends dog to death. I remember the dog, it was a Black Lab. I do recall something about people making an uproar about it. Don't recall what happened to him. I do recall a few of my best friends standing up for him, and putting down the dog. It was very obvious that the dog was a very docile one, that is what I recall & what everyone else said.
The guy was simply a prick. I lost all respect for him, and a lot of respect for several of my friends. This day and age, I would been tempted to kick all there asses, certainly the pricks, I guess i was a lot mellower dude back then. But with him it was his attitude, would snear/lear when someone brought the subject up. Certainly didn't ask forgiveness from nobody. As far as kicking his but, I wish I would have, he certainly needed it. It wouldn't have been any trouble for me then...not to many people were as I recall!!
Edit:I use to hunt, still would if I had a family to feed and lived in an area where there was plentiful game. That is one of the reasons it is there, imo! I have a problem with the way the inhumane way they treat certain animals on certain farms as I already stated. And all for the almighty dollar. So why finance it by buying fast food, etc.!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 19, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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doesn't matter what other cultures do to dogs, in this culture, to this dog.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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doesn't matter what other cultures do to dogs, in this culture, to this dog.
Wade Icey, are you asking someone a question?
I suspect you are! So I will take a shot at answering it!
Yes, it does matter what other cultures do to dogs in our culture. They are living in our culture. We have set laws which govern our culture. We expect people to follow them and respect them. We should and some of us would do whatever we could to make sure that they were, one way or another!
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Aug 19, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
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We are what we do. A person that kills a passive animal by kicking it to death is true evil. People that find such actions forgivable and stay friends with such a sadist are evil too. The guy should have been reported to the police and arrested, he should get his ass handed to him. For those that don't get it, let me put it this way... It is only a matter of time before he pulls that b.s. on a person, on a child, etc. and..
If anyone attempts such a thing in front of me I will go ballistic, I'll be mama bear crazy. It is not advisable.
It is true that many folks from other cultures do not treat dogs well and with that knowledge one must consider this... There is a connection between violence, higher murder rates, mistreatment of children and women with the mistreatment of animals. I don't like those people.
AFS
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 19, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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If anyone attempts such a thing in front of me I will go ballistic, I'll be mama bear crazy. It is not advisable.
and I will gladly be papa grizzly
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 19, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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People from different cultures have different levels of empathy for animals, and then there are variations within individuals.
Regardless, when you make an animal dependent on you, it is YOUR responsibility to take care of it. The level of effort you put into that is a direct reflection on you, regardless of other considerations. Abandoning an animal that loves you to die a slow, painful death says what it says.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Anastasia,
The guy that kicked the dog to death happened in Ocean Beach, San Diego in the mid seventies. I did not personally know the guy. I can only really recall ever seeing him on one occasion. The time one of my friends, out of the blue, asked him something about the girls dog. The guy sneered and said nothing, just shrugged his shoulders. We were standing on the beach at OB Jetty. On the way back to the car, I recall asking the guy what it was about and he explained it somewhat to me. I did see the girl around more frequently, she was a local. And I remembered the dog. The prick was her current boyfriend. Or maybe she dumped him,I do not recall. I prollie never saw the guy again. I am pretty sure he was being prosecuted. That is why at least one person that i new,like I said was evidently sticking up for him. He new the guy. I did not. I have stronger feelings than you do believe me.
I have not heard d00ds, side of the story. I have read perhaps 1/4 or less of the posts on this thread. He should really come on here, or email someone here and give his side of the story.
I gave my stance and let my emotions speak on all my posts here. My last post, above, gave him the benefit of the doubt in an attempt to get him to speak up. Like i said, we have not heard anything from him. I still have a lot of difficulty with him simply leaving it there and all the rest. He IS reading this, if he doesn't at least attempt to contact us,it will say a lot/something about him. His "friend" already posted on here, he (dOOd) is the one that should get involved in this conversation if he thinks he can somehow get his dog back, or he somehow made an adequate effort to get Missy back down. In the very least he needs to explain himself,come on and makea public apology. So far he has let his "friend" do the talking for him. He needs to speak up. When I said (above post) that he had asked for forgivness, i thought he had done so on here. I have not read this whole thread. He needs to man up!!
You do not understand the concept of forgiveness. It is not for their benefit, it is for your own. You will simmer and seeth and it will only destroy your life. The person you forgive may not even be around to know that you forgave them, or not even deserve it, or care for that matter. Most sociopaths don't. That is not the point. I learned that at age 12/13. I came into contact with a psychopath serial killer at 8 y.o.! I came very, very close to being murdered. Believe me, I know what unforgiveness and bitterness, and anger can do.
There is just to much anger, bitterness & loathing going on in this thread.
At this point,it will do no one any good. It will be carried on just like the WoS thread, etc.!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 19, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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There is no culture that treats animals worse than this country. It's just that we choose to exempt our favorite ones from the mistreatment
There is a connection between violence, higher murder rates, mistreatment of children and women with the mistreatment of animals. I don't like those people.
peace
Karl
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
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Stahlbro,
As you can read in my several posts, I totally agree with you!
And like, I just said, forgiveness is absolutely necessary for YOUR OWN well being. What they do with it is their business.
Like I said (don't really like to discuss it) & I already told the whole story twice here on ST over the past 5 or so years. But at 8 y.o. I came very close to being murdered. 30+ other kids regarding this guy, evidently, were not so fortunate. And I was also fortunate enough to learn at around 13 y.o. i had to do something in regards to my bitterness, anger & hate towards this guy. And from that,I learned that all bitterness and hate (no matter how undeserving a person is of it) is absolutely necessary for your own well being, please believe me.
I was getting pretty upset about this whole deal & did not sleep very well, hardly at all last night. So I did what i needed to do this morning, but i was sincere. You do need to be that.
I have also worked in psych, still can if I chose to, I am an OTR/L. I saw the outcomes of bitterness on a daily basis. That is one of the major factors in mental illness, discordant families etc.! Something like this, can carry over into your own family life. It happens all the time. You may not recognize it, but it does.
With that said, if d00d is reading this, he should man up and do something to qwell all the negative vibs he has created, it would be good for all, just saying!
edit: Karl B -- YES!! That is what i was talking about in regards to the chickens and other farm animals I mentioned. What has happened to OUR culture to allow this? Very pathetic. Very sad. Thanks for posting those pics!!
Anastasia -Yes, i agree, investigated and looked at by a judge would be good. Forgiveness is one thing, butb it does not rule out the necessary legal or criminal aspects. You can forgive or be asked for forgiveness as a thief, abuser, murderer or whatever. But there is still a price to pay to your victims, or society in general, etc.! Good point!
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Aug 19, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
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I get what you mean. I can tell you are a very descent guy and yes, I am not the best person for forgiveness. It is extremely hard for me to forgive and treat someone with respect after witnessing unnecessary cruelty, especially towards a person who has mistreat others for their amusement. It's always a victim that can not defend themselves and that sickens me. I can forgive after a great show of growth and improvement over years but... I am also guilty of never trusting them again.
I prefer the souls that would naturally not harm unless provoked.
As for the guy... I will give him a benefit of a doubt. He obviously is unfamiliar with where to go for help. Plus he was out of state which makes most people act even more helpless since everything feels "uncomfortable." We usually are more able in our own territories. I also know that I personally would do more for my dog so I am also skeptical. One thing for sure, it should be investigated and all evidence presented to a judge and yes... I trust judges. Most judges are awesome at seeing through B.S.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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canyoncat - Ya, I agree d00ds lookin pretty pathetic. Looks like it is in the Judges hands at this point since they are going to bring charges against him!
CC - Thanks for the update & pics! Missy sure is a beautiful dog! I wish I could own her!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 19, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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Splitter,
I remember your story, and it is tough one. I agree at some point you move on and look forward.
Forgiveness is probably in order here, but their is usually a price to be paid as well. Hopefully that price leads to introspection and change.
I am not perfect either and not one to cast the first stone, but I think accountability is important before healing begins. Just my opinion.
Peace.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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Stalhbro,
Ya, I agree with what you have to say. Perhaps i jumped the gun a lil on my, "I had a change of heart" post. I woke up between 3-4 and couldn't go back to sleep. Started thinking about all the damning things i had said and just felt like getting it all behind me, before it got worse! I am glad that they will be pressing charges. He does need to be held accountable. I have always felt this way. Forgiveness does not release someone from accountability / justice, nor any compensation necessary or required. And, he needs firm reminder that he won't forget for along time.
Peace, indeed!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 19, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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But the judges here are still paying others to cage, feedlot and otherwise put countless animals in tortuous conditions and they have less a chance of survival than that Dog
Do you really not see the hypocrisy in it? I spend the winters in a part of India where killing Cows is Illegal and they are horrified that we do it. They often don't treat the many stray dogs as nice (but don't beat or kill them) because in their culture, Dogs aren't as valued
Do you really trust current culture to make your moral decisions for you. Slavery used to be legal and accepted in this country. That was popular culture at the time
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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Karl,
I don't trust government or culture in regards to any of my moral decisions. As i stated in that rather long post i made that included the story with the big rig loaded with chickens squashed into cages that led me away from any farm raised poultry and meat, etc., secondary to their inhumane treatment of them. I stated that I trust my conscience. That is what convicted me of not supporting the paltry and cruel/inhumane conditions that they stoop to for the almighty dollar. In my opinion it is a sin, and it would be a sin for me to eat face food (meat/poultry)etc. or even by it from the supermarket cuz it all comes from the same place. It is very sad, imo! Did you read my story about the chickens?
Peace!
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