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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 17, 2012 - 11:17am PT
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This is all I ever use, except I do the Kansas finish, which makes it a lot stronger and slower.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 17, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Thanks so much Jim for working this out!
The internet being what it is, I imagine we'll be hearing about the "problems" with the Yosemite finish bowlines for years, although it is now clear that even if you somehow get the finishing loop in the "wrong" position, the resulting knot is fine and is no more "untied" than an ordinary bowline is, given that the ordinary bowline can, when tied loosely, also be collapsed into an untied configuration.
I agree that the rethreaded bowline is the best tie-in knot, although we know from many commercial examples that the best technology doesn't always become the most universally adopted, and the figure-8 is the Microsoft Office of the knot world for now.
The one problem with the rethreaded bowline is that if you use half ropes, then you have to fit four strands through your harness tie-in points, which is getting a little crowded. For this reason, I've stuck with ordinary bowlines.
I use the Yosemite finish because (on multipitch routes) I clip my belay device to the rope loop, not the harness belay loop, an approach I learned some time ago from BD engineer Chris Harmston on the old rec.climbing. The Yosemite finish allows you to put the grapvine stopper knot outside the rope loop rather than inside, leaving a cleaner place for clipping the belay device.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 17, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
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In a message up thread a few people thought that Lynn Hill had begun to tie in with a figure eight. This is incorrect. In a conversation I had with her a couple of months, we were discussing the "re-threaded" bowline and I asked her about her accident.
The key to Lynn's accident was that there was no knot. She was going to tie a bowline and had threaded the rope through the tie-in loops when she was distracted. When she started climbing the rope was simply threaded through the tie-ins. When I asked he if she thought she would have had that accident if she had been using a fig-8 she thought perhaps not. She thinks that if she had been using a fig-8 that she or her partner may have seen the unthreaded first knot hanging below her jacket and been warned.
Regardless, I'm with JTitt and Rgold. I use a re-threaded bowline. I like it because it's easier to untie after weighting it, which I seem to do quite often these days, and, because it's more complicated to tie, I pay more attention to the process of tying it.
It's kind of a Zen thing for me as I'm much more engaged in the process of tying the knot than I ever have been before.
Climb safe,
Mal
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jul 17, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
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Maldaly;-"Regardless, I'm with JTitt and Rgold. I use a re-threaded bowline. I like it because it's easier to untie after weighting it, which I seem to do quite often these days, and, because it's more complicated to tie, I pay more attention to the process of tying it.
It's kind of a Zen thing for me as I'm much more engaged in the process of tying the knot than I ever have been before."
Nicely put, one problem with coming from the original bowline generation is that we probably learnt it too well, all that practicing tying it one handed behind ones back and so on combined with 20 years of sailing means it is just too easy to tie without thinking, the re-thread is just impossible to do without looking and thinking. And the most elegant of knots when it is finished as well which is nice!
Richards point with double ropes is a good one, I revert to the 8 then but have no intention of falling off anyway! At the speed ropes are getting thinner this won´t be a problem soon anyway, my latest halves are 7.8mm and the new twins from Edelrid are 6.9mm!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 17, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Buncha pussies can't untie a figure eight.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 17, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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I love Jeremy....
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Manjusri
climber
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Jul 17, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
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How about the double bowline with follow through? This is the knot I've been using for years. Allows you to tie the fisherman's above the bowline. I've had my fisherman's untie from too much humping the rock and never had this one lose its shape.
edit: better link
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
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Like this person posted, this is the knot I use. (Trad and Sport) I've been using is for a couple decades now and have no issues with it.
Cheers
Eman
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
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hey there say, stephanfisher and all...
yep, i don't climb... but i sure appreciate all the shares of knowledge etc, in this thread...
thanks for sharing...
i was curious, too, how the 'term' came to be...
the posts are many here, so perhaps i will see the answer here,....
*i liked the part how the one guy had 'used the expression' but NOT known where yosemite was, :)
learning about knots and danger when not done right, is always a good share...
well, off to read some of this...
:)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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The Yosemite bowline isn't meant for 11mm ropes.
It's for 10mm and below .....
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 17, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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That is good beta, WBraun!
And maybe the following also applies:
Mountaineers: Use the 8. It is safe, proven and even if you tie it wrong, it mostly will save your ass.
Big Wallers: Your call, the 8 will weld, but if your life is dependent on a knot for days/weeks under many varieties of loading, find what works best.
People that actually take whippers doing free climbing: Find something else that doesn't weld when you fall, or bring an appropriate tool.
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Jul 19, 2012 - 11:09am PT
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So, A lot of people jumped on this and really thought it was a stupid concern.
However, recently I saw this exact flip happen. The knot is not being tied 'incorrectly' there is just an incorrect order of strand tightning (which leads to pass through end pulling ontop of the base strand).
It was not in a climbing application, per say, but on a fixed line, my partner and I were both really confused. He tied it, I looked at it, all looked well. I got onto the line, and a 3rd partner then came in and saw the bizarre knot he described as a half hitch, or double half hitch, or something like that. We were all confused.
The knot did hold fine though.
Good info throughout the rest of the thread. I do feel that there is a chance of this occurring (because I saw it happen in one scenario.).
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 19, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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The Yosemite bowline isn't meant for 11mm ropes.
It's for 10mm and below .....
Other than here, where is that written? I've never heard that, it does make sense though.
Prod.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jul 19, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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Chappy taught me the double bowlin at the apes wall in the early 90's.
I have used it ever since.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:27am PT
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Wow, and Maldaly rec'd THIS thread in the Taco as "intelligent discussion"
vs. RC.com's?!??
First, no one corrected this old myth --save Lynn Hill herself, in her book:
> Lynn Hill was using a fig 8 when she fell 80' to the deck while lowering
> from the chains, she had forgotten to finish the knott.
> The lesson here? uuuummm, not sure. . .
How about : Check your facts? Lynn wrote that she simply tied NO KNOT,
but had intended to use her usual tie-in, a bowline. She wore a jacket that
hid this tragic condition, rope threaded into harness but untied, and she
was distracted during her tie-in.
To the OP, yes, the video shows how mis-tying can occur with what
might strike the tyer as beneficial tightening of the knot. The community
ought to welcome the insight rather than belittle it --presentation notwithstanding.
(Interestingly, the first edition of a widely distributed book On Rope has
the mistied YoBowl on its Ch.3 KNOTS cover page (!). Yeah, maybe that was
*artistic license* or something --made it to presss, whatever.
In most cases (nearly all, actually), the bowline is presented with the wrong
face to the viewer ; consider how the sheet bend is presented --THAT is
the face of the bowline (looking so alike, after all) that should be shown,
as from that perspective one can better see many of the interesting things
that can be done in extending the knot, and in the basic knot (the simple,
straight, in-around-tree-back-out paths (the "bight") of the tail are easy
to comprehend, compared to the loop of the mainline).
There is a simple variation of the bowline that uses a tail-tuck akin
to what is used in the YoBowl but more directly --without requiring
the (often reluctantly stiff) rope to turn around the single diameter
of the eye leg; and this variation is immune to the mis-formation
shown in the video. (See attached photo (if all goes well) of this knot,
tied in the bight.)
*kN*
ps: "half a dbl. fish" / "(half a) grapevine" ...
There IS a name for that knot : >>strangle knot<<.
Good for binding ends of ropes (w/mason line, fishline) to prevent (un)raveling;
acceptable to tie off a coil of rope.
And de rigeur for securing the tail in many kernmantle applications.
"STRANGLE" oughta be catchy enuff, and shorter than the imposters above.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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This is what I use when it's a race to the crag, seconds count, and someone else is about to snake my route:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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Wow, and Maldaly rec'd THIS thread in the Taco as "intelligent discussion"
vs. RC.com's?!??
First, no one corrected this old myth --save Lynn Hill herself, in her book:
> Lynn Hill was using a fig 8 when she fell 80' to the deck while lowering
> from the chains, she had forgotten to finish the knott.
> The lesson here? uuuummm, not sure. . .
the lesson here is to read the thread before posting yr foot in yr mouth.
for a start, try re-reading just mal's posts, you know, the ones you're actually citing. i'd cut-and-paste it for you, but it seems like you need the intellectual exercise. see if you can find it on your own.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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try re-reading just mal's posts, you know, the ones you're actually citing. i'd cut-and-paste it for you, but it seems like you need the intellectual exercise
Actually, I'm alluding to his RC.com post,
which led me here at a time when there were 4pp of the thread.
Yep, missed one --his--; thanks for being partially helpful.
When I asked he if she thought she would have had that accident if she had been using a fig-8 she thought perhaps not. She thinks that if she had been using a fig-8 that she or her partner may have seen the unthreaded first knot hanging below her jacket and been warned.
This is interesting, in that Lynn's case mistakenly cited as using the Fig.8 eyeknot
is sometimes given as a reason NOT to use the 8 --with it's *half-tied* state, of
the initial 8 awaiting the "re-threading" completion--, thinking that THAT is a
danger,
versus the bowline's being either completed or knotless, no half-way state.
(Frankly, I think that had she intended the fig.8 she just as well could have
been interrupted with the start of re-threading and the knotted part would
be out-of-view.)
*kN*
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Bump
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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interesting discussion. I have a friend in his 60's who is really into ice climbing. He prefers to tie in using the grapevine. See the shots below. Anybody else use this or have any comentary? The knot is tied into the belay loop just for this example. Normally it would be tied in just like the figure 8.
And dressed
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