Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
crotch
climber
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 01:28pm PT
|
Here's the same design with an integrated screamer at the end. Probably not enough room to absorb much force, but who knows.
|
|
katiebird
Sport climber
austin
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
|
I vote for no more dasies with small loop ends- you can't hitch them and there are many unawares that will only use one biner to shorten and not twist the daisy.
Also, maybe in the tags for purchae there should be instructions on the best ways to use and the worst ways to misuse.
|
|
jdclimber
Mountain climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 02:37pm PT
|
Years ago I tied a simple Overhand knot in the last loop of the daisy to prevent the death scenerio, this made the last pocket smaller. This was a Spectera Daisy, which has it's own problems, and the knot ended up being fairly small but has served me well.
Any reason why this can't be the solution going forward rather than many stitches and bits of webbing?
First daisy I ever owned was a big ol sling of 1" tubular with a heap of overhand (doubled) knots in the sling creating pockets. Far from Sexy, but safe just the same.
Any tests with that config Russ?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
|
Any reason why this can't be the solution going forward rather than many stitches and bits of webbing?
Too easy.
|
|
rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 03:53pm PT
|
Having dealt with this problem before, I switched to the Mountain Tools anchor chains. They're stitched to hold 1100lb in the pockets and 4950 end to end. I tested a pocket on one I retired And it popped at over 1400lb. . Good enough for me. http://mountaintools.com/cat/mt/web/mt_anchorchain.htm
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
|
wedgee: you have just switched to the exact thing we have been talking about. That ain't gonna save you and is just a regular daisy chain.
Here is a small test from a previous thread.
Similar numbers and construction. The headless chickens are saying this will get you killed. I suggest reading all the threads once more.
|
|
susan peplow
climber
Winner of Diet Challenge!!!
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 08:05pm PT
|
Nice biner change on the tests Russ. Glad to see you're using Coz's stuff now.
xo
|
|
rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 08:34pm PT
|
Russ, I use M.T.'s because of the stronger pocket strength. Others I've used blow @ >250lb, which is barely a bounce test. I clip end to end and shorten with a key lock biner as opposed to a fifi.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 08:38pm PT
|
blow at 250 OR rated to 250?
If you have pockets blowing out at 250 lbs you should out the maker RIGHT NOW as those WILL get you killed.
Fattrad: Keep 'em. This is all just hysteria. In 96.3% of applications shoelace would probably work. Remember, when you number is up it's up... ain't no dasiy gonna save ya when it is your time to go.
|
|
JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 08:57pm PT
|
Yeah, most of the time, you're never going to be able to replicate these falls that tests show break runners. It's highly unlikely to take a factor-two fall directly onto a completely static anchor.
That said, I would prefer a dynamic link between myself and an anchor, as my *body* would probably break before the runner did. I'm wondering why no one has looked into a kernmantle constructed anchor system modeled after rope and dynamic to significantly lessen impact forces.
Probably too expensive to R&D.
I stick with the contention that your best safety practice is not to fall off the rock.
|
|
JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
|
|
|
May 11, 2006 - 09:41pm PT
|
Uh, I'm always interested in improving the chances of me not dying...
|
|
Mackavus
climber
|
|
Dudes,
Am I understanding that throwing an overhand in the last loop will prevent the magic trick? And although this works we are trying to come up with a better solution? This is how I have my daisy rigged as it made sense to me, but I had to flip the damn thing around because it is a BD and the end loop was too small for this. So, the end loop is really the harness end and vice versa.
Also, and yell at me if this has been said, rather than adding a loop as the above suggestions stated with dual bar tacks and what not; couldn't you just make the last bartack full strength? That way you would have one bomb-ass pocket at the end of the chain, and if the others blow your still set. Right? I guess what I am saying is that I see how the "insert" is cool, but if you are going to start making them like that, why not just bartack the last tack to the max?
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Clove, not overhand.
Russ, yeah, make em clove size loop only, it's gotta be the simplest way, eh?
|
|
Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
|
|
Mack is right, we're overthinking this.
Several pretty simple solutions (that don't involve buying new gear) have been presented:
An overhand in the last loop
A clove hitch in the last loop
Shortening your daisy with a second biner, leaving the anchor end biner through only the end loop at all times.
Shortening your daisy with a spare biner from the harness end, like you do with your fifi.
There's probably a few more, I prefer the fourth option as I found the clove hitch to be a pain the the crapper when I wanted to flip the biner, hadn't tried the overhand yet, but I don't think my loops are big enough. Second biner on the end of the line seems like a pain. Also, I have a misty nylon daisy that has a pretty small end loop, so when I tried out the clove hitch option, I just flipped the whole rig around so the girth-hitch loop became the end loop since it was bigger. Still don't like the clove option though.
Of course, none of those are idiotproof like a special for-idiots daisy would be...
Edit: If you did produce a daisy with the extra bar tacking, etc, you could call it the FID (For Idiots Daisy), kinda like the metolius PAS.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
|
since I am on a death, destruction, and test mode..... bump this action
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2006 - 10:56pm PT
|
OK so here is my 2 cents worth. Why do any of those options (other than full strength bar tacking all pockets)? I have never liked or been comfortable with girth hitching or clove hitching or over hand knotting one material to another particularily when they are of differing dimensions. IMHO the easiest answer is to just attach your daisy to your harness with a locking carabiner. No knots no fuss full strength.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2006 - 11:01pm PT
|
philo.... did you read this stuff? It has nothing to do with how you attach it to your harness. It is all about the business end, not the harness end.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
Russ, I did read it all and I thought most were in agreement that a second biner was the easiest and safest way to adjust the business end of the daisy. That still leaves all the long term wear and tear of the girth hitched harness endof the daisy. That is what I was refering to. Modifications to the biz end are all well and good but where is the most likely point of crtical failure?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Having never seen or used a daisy chain I will limit my comments to using as a variable tie in, the old knotted et's we used to make from a single humongous knotted 1" sling. I wouldn't and I didn't. If you are going to use a mechanical structure for safety you need to insist on having a lot of strength tests performed in exactly the manner in which you propose to use the unit. Without tests who knows how those knots would have stood up to weirdly applied forces? When you have a structure you can hook in using any of ten different ways, sooner or later you are going to be swimming in unknown water.
Faithful application of this rationale to daisy chains would have precluded the use of them now being examined here.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2006 - 03:16pm PT
|
Philo writes:
Modifications to the biz end are all well and good but where is the most likely point of crtical failure?
Most likely is far and away an improper clip in the middle of the chain. I've read your posts a few times now and I'm just not getting what you are saying. If you watch the BD video, that is the scenario we are trying to get around. Your attachment point to the harness, be it girth hitching, locking biner or 8 wraps of duct tape has nothing to do with the failure scenario in the BD video.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!