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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 25, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
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On the edge. just cause you do something the hard way all the time dosent make you smart, just tough. i do not use the auto block just for safty. I use it because it makes my life easier. You need to stop in the middle of a 500ft WI5+ pillar to build an anchor and you have instant hands free secure backup. same thing goes for dealing with snarls in the rope, trundeling loose blocks Etc. The safty of the back up is secondary to the convience of it but still appreciated.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 25, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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Not backing up your rappel is for idiots.
If this means every time, then I'm one of the idiots. I probably do 90% of my rappels without a friction-knot backup. I seem to be in the company of some distinguished co-idiots in this regard.
I don't want to convince anyone to do this, it is a personal choice that no one should feel obliged to defend, but here are my reasons.
1. First, I'd been rappelling for a good thirty years before anyone seriously spoke of backing up rappels. I've learned how to do it safely and haven't even the slightest concern about letting go with the brake hand under any ordinary circumstances. Something would have to knock me out. If I judge there to be a credible (as opposed to hypothetical) chance of that, I use a backup.
2. My home crag has a lot of overhangs to drop over. I prefer to be able to let out slack quickly and not have some back-up device activate and smash my face into the lip. There are other rare occasions when I'd like to be able to drop very quickly, eg running into a wasp nest.
3. I see no advantage for rap backups for the kind of stopping one does in the course of ordinary descents (primarily to undo snags and tangles). Leg wraps are fast to implement and super-bomber. The only place backups are superior to leg wraps for ordinary descents is if the launch is tricky and requires both hands free to get into position. The lack of easy adjustability of leg wraps makes a friction knot backup preferable for this.
I might add that I have taken to always rappelling with the device extended. This has several advantages:
1. Improved friction because of sharper rope angles---the brake strands are essentially parallel to the load strands, which is very awkward to arrange when the device is on the belay loop.
2. Two brake hands on the rope. This is a big advantage in general, and also gives you the ability in some situations to hand-over-hand the rope into the device, meaning you are always gripping the rope. In addition to managing dicey moves better (e.g. certain diagonal raps), this method can keep unequal diameter ropes from running through the device at different rates.
3. System instantly ready for the installation of a backup friction knot if circumstances call for one.
There are two disadvantages to extensions.
1. The device is near your face and can grab hair and beards.
2. The device can grate alarmingly on the lips of overhangs.
I do not find these to outweigh the advantages.
Friction knot backups have their place for the first person down when there are real and present objective dangers (rockfall and/or lightning) or when the rappeller is doing some type of construction work or is cleaning a lot of gear. After the first person down, a fireman's belay is preferable, because it allows the party to lower an unconscious rappeller down to the stance, rather than have to mount an extremely complicated and dangerous rescue effort to retrieve an unconscious rappeller held in place by an activated backup system.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 25, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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rgold
you said it better than I could.
But
I have taken to always rappelling with the device extended
Velly Intellesting....but Strange (apologies to Laugh-In and Arte Johnson)
I'll give this a try (that is, all the time). I have short hair and no beard.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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May 25, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
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If you back up your rappel, why not back up your belay? Or is it fine to be unsafe when it is someone else's life in your hands?
+1 GriGri's twist the rope anyways. A proper lead belay with them is somewhat of an art.
3. I see no advantage for rap backups for the kind of stopping one does in the course of ordinary descents (primarily to undo snags and tangles). Leg wraps are fast to implement and super-bomber. The only place backups are superior to leg wraps for ordinary descents is if the launch is tricky and requires both hands free to get into position. The lack of easy adjustability of leg wraps makes a friction knot backup preferable for this.
+1 for leg wraps! I was going to mention that. With 3 good leg wraps (each one securing the other) I can let go of the brake hand if absolutely necessary.
I love rapping and I like to go fast so I tend to not back it up. I will when I know I want to stop and do something or if I'm worried about rock fall.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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Don't people know how to rappel by now?
It's year 2012 .....
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 25, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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Werner, we used to know how to rappel, but now we are idiots.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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May 25, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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If you back up your rappel, why not back up your belay?
The rappel is just you, absent a fireman's belay. On the lead there are two people involved and the gear may not be relied upon as in a rappel.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 25, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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After reading the first 40+ posts, I really don't understand how the most obvious solution escaped everyone. Climb with an experienced 3rd climber. That way the missus is never unsupervised and there is immediate help in getting off the rock/ out of a difficult situation. That is...unless your ego is offended. In that case...
Yer gonna die.
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Scott Lougheed
Trad climber
Fallon, NV
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2012 - 12:51am PT
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We are practicing the extended rap device today and tomorrow pseudo multi pitch we'll be at Calico basin. Sunday will be the big multi pich day. Any AAI or AMGA guides in the canyon? I'd be interested in hiring for the smart third party support.
Thanks for all the help but a third experienced climber is the answer.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2012 - 10:49am PT
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Werner has a point, it's a pretty simple process that doesn't require a lot of trickery- just PAY ATTENTION to what you are doing.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 26, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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the choice of whether to rig a prusik back-up knot is exactly the same exercise as deciding whether to use a condom with a new girl
you take in all the information
process the information -- how exposed to risk am I? you ask
and then you decide whether to go with the back-up/condom
In 12 years of climbing I've rigged a back-up maybe 10% of the time
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 27, 2012 - 08:56am PT
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My suggestion of climbing with a third and more exoperienced climber is for the instructional and safey issues raised by the OP. Once the missus becomes more confident and competent in handling herself, the third person is unnecessary. Yes a rope of 3 becomes a moving inchworm on longer routes, but the intent was to gain some experience for the wife.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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May 27, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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Of course Eli's wife's anatomy is a bit distracting
So was my friend. So...on our 1st multipitch climb, I set up a single stand, so as to belay with the other. Get out on the tip of the ledge: "Now, just lean back, and walk yourself down!" I explained.
"Something doesn't feel right!" she replied.
So, I checked the anchors...and found that the strand she was to rap off of wasn't clipped to anything. No tension, nor attention, at all (I was too busy looking down her scoop neck tee).
"So! You expect me to clip you in? Or what?" Heh..
On the next stance, I asked her if she'd like to have a belay for her rappel.
"Thanks, No!"
So, that's one way to teach a newbie.
Yes, I used to hire YMS Guides, typically for death routes that I couldn't lead myself, nor could anyone I knew - 5.11 types - either. They insist of a fireman's setup, when you're the 1st man down. Ridiculous! I taught myself on 30 feet of 8 mil at Indian Rock, been doing it the same for 30 years (until, on a nighttime simul rap from Kinkfisher, I forgot your can dbl up friction by doubling up a 6 biner device). Anyway, with that fireman's rig way out from my harness, the thumb of my guide hand above started to enter the rappel device, so thoughtfully prerigged for me - on a climb with an X rating to begin with.
That's another way to learn how to rig it up yourself.
Method #3-
Out near Moab - never mind where - is a Grade V normally descent by rappel, to save a bit of a hike round the backside, in this case, in the dark. The wall overhangs gently...maybe a half inch per bodylength C1 or C2 placement. Which meant that you ended up a good 30 -50 feet out from the stance (hanging) that you'd left below.
So, with some experience from days since Indian Rock, a rope was left fixed, so we could pull ourselves back into the stances - did I mention they were hanging stances? - on the way back down.
Well, when we top out, we are greeted by but a single summit bolt. Already a BASE destination, seems that the local SAR (2 of whom were were my partners de jour) were tired of rescuing "Sport Rappelers." Yes, there are some folk who walk up the backside, to experience the thrill of a free rappel, the most deadly aspect of the climbing sport. And, these hardy souls would cast off the summit of this formation, which appears merely vertical from the road, only to find themselves stranded well out from the wall at the end of the rope.
sooo...2 of the 3 summit rap anchors had been chopped, as a disincentive to sport raps. (lost in the darkness of the backside sandstone fins, we ended up improvising a few rappels anyway, from bushes. The alternative would have been to free solo downclimb something like the west face of Lembert - with Wall Racks)(I reascended the descent the following day, to back clean the slings for their return...and to see where, exactly, we'd hiked in the night)
I guess I remember a few other techniques, such as you're down to a few 'biners and pins, having just bailed in a storm. Did you know that you can rap with just a single carabiner, and one piton for a cross bar? Of course, if either were to fail...
I've yet to perform a Dulfersitz. I've always imagined that if I had gotten myself and partner completely out of gear, and otherwise screwed, I could probably manage to learn one, and rather quickly.
;-]
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 27, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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A Dulfersitz...Is. Not. Recommended. Ouch.
I still have rope burn scars on my neck and shoulders from my escapades BITD.
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Scott Lougheed
Trad climber
Fallon, NV
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
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We survived and outstanding weekend at red Rocks. We practice rappelling multipitch rap. And by Sunday we were pros and no problems. Extension of the second device is key and easy. Thanks for everyone's help! We had a great weekend and the climbers camp site was les than half fiilled. red springs climbs like cowlick was totally emptied .
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 29, 2012 - 10:18am PT
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glad you had fun, survived, were able to make sense of all the advice, and that it actually helped!
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