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Newton
Big Wall climber
Key West
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Apr 14, 2006 - 07:23pm PT
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Karl: you seem like a decent guy. Apparently bright, articulate and caring. That is why it is so confusing that your priorities are 180 degrees askew from what they should be. You may wish to refresh your memory on the concept of: Tradgedy of the Commons. Safely step down from that high horse you ride upon. You are getting a bit long in the tooth for such a high and hard saddle and being tossed will no doubt cause you skeletal injury.
I only post because I care.
XXXXXOOOOOXXXXX
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 14, 2006 - 07:24pm PT
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billygoat & rajmit are the two of the most real people here.
uh... you're new here aren't you?
Rajmit actually went so far as to concoct a completely BS background, completely made-up details of who he was, where he was, how old he was, etc; he even posted a BS photo of himself.
Entertaining? maybe. Real? Most definitely not.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Apr 14, 2006 - 07:38pm PT
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"uh... you're new here aren't you?"
These guys aren't new around here. Their NAMES are new, but they've been here before. No one new comes on this hard and heavy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2006 - 07:40pm PT
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Maybe it would be helpful if Newton and Billy articulated what is the problem and why it's severe enough to make public issue of it. What are the routes and pitches that have brought us to this?
I just haven't seen anything that I thought was a problem. Obviously we disagree but I think it's the disagreement that makes you think I'm on a high horse, and not my actual words. If I adopted that same tone arguing "on your side" I think you'd be fine with it.
Peace
karl
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Newton
Big Wall climber
Key West
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Apr 14, 2006 - 07:44pm PT
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uh... you're new here aren't you?
Relatively. But truth has a way of resonating and reverberating in my estrogen addled mind like a well tuned harmony of notes.
Let me restate: They are free. Free of fear of self image. Free of censure from the forum of public opinion. They speak their truth. They are honest in their opinion. They realize that self-image and self censure are weakness. They are more likely to be decent folk in the real world than many others that post here so overly concerned with their images and what the rest of the group thinks of them. I would cast my lot with them before casting it with so many others here. I would also cast my rod with them in a flyfishing contest. They have nice lures.
*
just haven't seen anything that I thought was a problem. Obviously we disagree but I think it's the disagreement that makes you think I'm on a high horse, and not my actual words. If I adopted that same tone arguing "on your side" I think you'd be fine with it.
Incorrect. I think they are bringing to light a very important issue and one that most people would rather not deal with because it is complex and there AE NO EASY ANSWERS (if there are any to begin with!)
As for sides? I have not one. And never do. When I find myself choosing a side I realize I have drifted away from reality. Sides are a matter of perspective and my perspectives tend to be dynamic and not static.
Karl: I did not mean to attack you, only engage you. I think you are too deep into the forrest to be able to see clearly the patterns of growth that surround you. I would never try to "win", for that is a silly and impossible thing to attain. But you do ride about projecting the notion that you know what is correct and what is not. All I say is that the very concept of what is right and wrong in climbing is mercurial and likely to change as fast as the weather often does in the Valley. Fair enough?
PEACE
Thanks for the food for thought.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
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Umm.. Yeah, I'm way more "real" (as if anybody who's ever tried a hallucinogen KNOWS what that means) than rajmit. Still, I appreciate Karl's concerns about anonymity. But, at this time, you still haven't convinced me to give it up. I can tell you that if Minerals, James, k-man, scuffyb, t-bird, stinky, and some others I'm forgetting wanted to tell you what my real name was they could. But I don't think it would make a difference. I'm nobody you've heard of. Just a climber who sprays when he's not climbing.
Okay kelly, there's a response coming to your questions about what I want to FO. But first I want to go spend some time in the Sauna. Oh, that might lead straight to hanging out with my sweetie. So be patient.
I will say, I think this thread has had some positive dialogue. I wish Chris Mac would chime in. He knows he has 'til noon tomorrow, before I strongly consider speaking out past this thread (Minerals and I are still talking about this... and Klaus, where are you?).
Rajmit, there's an answer to your question about money. It comes later.
Sorry for the cryptic, mysterious comments. Gotta go get clean and warm.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 14, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
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We COULD do without JK Rowling
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2006 - 08:03pm PT
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I agree that there are no easy answers and also agree that "what is right and wrong in climbing is mercurial and likely to change as fast as the weather often does in the Valley"
That's why I object to taking "push to shove" here in a pubic forum. I used to manage some employee housing in the park here years ago. Some roomates were arguing about not cleaning up their mess when one of them dyed their hair in the sink. Push came to shove and pretty soon they were calling NPS on each other for unrelated stuff like feeding the deer and boyfriends and stuff. It didn't turn out well for anybody.
But I also don't care about bolts as much as many. I soloed Zodiac in 1982 and the bolts hardly ever had a hanger and many were crap. I climbed it again in 2002 (clean except for fixed gear) and found myself the same challenges but different. It's was all good to me. Folks say the valley has changed so radically but to me it's pretty much the same except for one main thing. Folks can't stay in Camp 4 indefinately anymore and so there is far less of a really local element here now.
Peace
Karl
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Apr 14, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
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"We COULD do without JK Rowling"
Amen to that!
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 15, 2006 - 01:31am PT
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This thread is another fine illumination of the inherent gheyness of all other forms of climbing when compared to boldering.
Or maybe it's the fact that climbers in general are too stupid to deal with complex issues like climbing in conjuction with strings, movable shiny baubles with anodized bits, shiny baubles, smaller shiny baubles and old manky once shiny baubles.
Can U imagine a bunch of bolderers sitting around arguing about inane issues like how many pads and spotters were present on the first ascent and how all subsequent ascents that didn't match the pad/spotter configuration of the FA are invalid.
You internet superheroines need to step back from the keyboard and go find some short pebbles to wrestle.
Seriously.
It's about climbing, not the baggage we attach to it.
Unless we make it about the baggage and not the climbing.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 15, 2006 - 09:44am PT
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BLowmeharder!!
SO THIS IS WHAT IT TAKES TO GET A POST OUT OF YOU.
Ahhhh, not worth it.
What are you doing these days?
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 15, 2006 - 10:52am PT
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Workin too much, too much rain to do anything else, etc....
Lurkin this board from time to time, sorry to hear about your hard times ahead, may every day be better than the last.
Now, back to the subject at hand, why is it that brain activity diminishes and egos swell when strings and aluminum bits get in the way of pure unrestricted climbing movement?
Any theories?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Apr 15, 2006 - 11:04am PT
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Bouldering sucks.
*poke*
'nuf said.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Apr 15, 2006 - 11:10am PT
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Bouldering as the purest form of climbing, that's hilarious! It is more like practicing or pretending to climb.
Freesoloing multi-pitch routes has that SO beat. Then there is the FA...
Bouldering is a hobby, not a sport.
And when I imagine a bunch of boulderers sitting around, I picture them talking about hair care products.
I can't believe I am going to say this, but Pete deserves more respect. I've seen the show first hand, and it is more of a sad pathetic than evil creepy. What did you think it was going to feel like getting hit on by an insurance salesman?
We had our issues, but I respect his right to be part of the community. I still think he screwed Chongo, but it wasn't like Chuck actually came up with the mechanical advantage.
As to the actual topic, I held back what I know, because these people are my friends, it felt like betrayal to out them. But AKclimber and others keep saying "there is no proof". Well, it's a fact. The eskimo used a hilti MANY times on the captain. Believe it. I am still not sure that is a bad thing, but it led to less than responsible replacement. He is still a friend and I'd break a bottle over anyone's head who starts a fight with him, but there it is.
Minerals is 100% correct in his statements, althought that doesn't mean anything will ever change.
It isn't betraying your roots when you set out to sell out in the first place.
The bottom line is be aware of what you do, and try to figure out why you do it. Be careful though, it can lead to enlightenment...
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 15, 2006 - 11:19am PT
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Arguing about climbing and ethics sucks.
I never said bouldering was the purest form of climbing (it is), only that when you drag all the bullshit that comes with (for some reason I don't understand) roped climbing into the fray, the zen experience that got us all hooked on climbing when we first started gets lost in the mix.
ElcapFOOL (very aptly named after reading your posts, IMO), I didn't mention FreeSoloing on purpose. Only a handful of people do it at the upper end of human limits, and you never hear them arguing among themselves (not mentioning the huge amounts of jealousy projected onto that Reardan fellow, didn't come from him or any other upper level Free Soloists). Plus, to further prove my point, free soloing, like boldering, is a sans rope activity.
So, back to ropes, bolts and arguing about all things stupid, why?
Why not just climb?
Edit: Elcap, nevermind...you get it. Just read this again: "The bottom line is be aware of what you do, and try to figure out why you do it. Be careful though, it can lead to enlightenment..."
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 15, 2006 - 11:22am PT
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Climbing is a hobby, not a sport.
I would love to give a highball tour of my local boldering area and see how many of these big inTARDnet mouths backed down wimpering instead of going for the send 25' up.
Every fall is a groundfall unroped. Every one.
Should I continue?
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Apr 15, 2006 - 11:34am PT
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The fool is because I am a shameless jester. I see your point, but admit to being very tired of people focusing on my username rather than what I say. I'd change it, but it has been my email address since they invented the internet.
You bring up the question where is the line between Highball bouldering and freesoloing. 25'? 50'? 30' sounds good to me.
And a lot more people freesolo than you seem to think.
Don't chalk (I don't use it) toothbrushes (I use them for something else) and mattresses (Too X rated for ST) count as "gear"?
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 15, 2006 - 01:58pm PT
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Absolutely, they count as gear (all good points, btw). Yet you never see entire communities divided by their use or non use. The drama built into climbing seems (at least to me) to rest squarely on the shoulders of the rope users. And it's not just rope/bolt users but also rope/cam users.
I'm still reaching for the why of the whole thing.
Why does one start to take themself so seriously that they must project their beliefs on others, and others can include whole groups of people.
When was the last time someone got punched out over a bolder problem? The stories of fistfights and chuffery (rope) shenanigans are legendary.
What gives?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 15, 2006 - 02:08pm PT
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Blowboarder - Young Bull - you don't get it, dude. Listen up.
You don't get the difference between style and ethics.
Style determines how you climb a route, whether you pre-place or pre-inspect or toprope or use a mattress. The key idea behind style is that it does not affect the rock. What you do really has no effect on how others follow you.
However one grey area is chalk - is this style, or is it ethics? Chalk covers rocks and from a stylistic viewpoint, makes the climb easier by marking the holds. Ethically it might be a consideration because the holds get covered in the junk. I'm not a boulderer [hell, no!] so I don't know what twenty years of over-chalking does to a boulder problem.
While style is important in aid climbing [for instance, whether or not to use a cheat-stick] it is the ethical dilemmas that polarize the community.
The placement or replacement of bolts is an ethical decision, because it permanently affects the rock, and permanently affects the experience of future ascensionists. And while it shouldn't necessarily lead to fisticuffs, it sometimes does! How would you feel if someone bolted your highball boulder problem because they had smaller balls [or a smaller mattress] than you?
It's not a question of one group's beliefs being projected onto others, it's what the one group does to the rock that directly affects others, and angers them.
There are several issues in this ethical debate - it has nothing to do with style.
The first is, "were any bolts added or new holes drilled?"
The next is, "how were the bolts replaced? Were existing holes re-used?"
The next is, "what was the old stuff replaced with?"
Another is, "was a power drill used, or only a hand drill?"
Since the use of power drills on El Cap is illegal [ask Kurt Smith - he was charged, and part of his penance was going around to slide shows and telling people what a terrible thing he did! Imagine the ASCA having to do that, if in fact they use power drills!] the question is, "if a power drill were used, do the ends [bolt replacement] justify the means [power drill] and should we as a community turn a blind eye to the fact that it's illegal?"
Generally speaking, it is uncool to drill new holes. It's damn hard to drill a 3/8" x 2 1/4" deep hole in granite with a hand drill. It's really easy to do with a power drill.
Few if any have problems with pulling out old bolts in belay anchors, and replacing them with new bolts. We did this on our ascent of Bermuda Dunes, pulling out 23 old rusty split-shank 1/4-inchers, drilling the hole out to 3/8", and replacing these anchor bolts with 3/8-inchers. My understanding is that this is cool for the most part. We had the permission of the first ascensionist, as well.
Rivets in the middle of pitches are a different thing altogether. While rivets look quite bomber, they're really not. The shear strength of a 1/4-inch rivet [or expansion bolt] is a little over a thousand pounds. Properly placed, the pull-out strength is about the same, but there are plenty of junk rivets up on the wall which are substantially weaker than this.
Many of these old rivets in the middle of pitches need replacing, too. But it is hard, if not impossible, to pull out some old rivets. Do you leave it, or do you chop it, drill a new hole next to it, and put in a new rivet? This can be done, and you can say that the "hole count" hasn't changed, even though you drilled a new hole, because the old hole is filled with a chopped rivet. If possible, get the old rivet out [easier said than done].
What doesn't seem kosher is when a mid-pitch rivet is replaced with a fatty 3/8" bolt. Suddenly a thousand-pound at best piece is replaced with something four or five times stronger - a 20kN bolt. The pitch has been made easier this way. Is this right? Probably not. Has it been done? Oh yeah, I've seen it done in plenty of places.
I remember soloing this hard A4 pitch on Zed-Em, and partway up the pitch clipping this fatty 3/8" bolt with an ASCA hanger on it, and thinking, "Whew! God bless ASCA!" Is this right? Probably not. Should that rivet have been replaced with another rivet? Probably.
Who did it and why? That's what we're asking here, so we can debate it.
What type of rivet goes in is important too. We used to use Grade 5 machine bolts - 5/16" diameter x 3/4" long - hammered into 1/4" holes, but these are hard to replace. The new and better ones are the Rawl buttonhead guys with the little "wings" on the shaft, not the split shaft ones. Can't remember what you call them, Minerals has made posts showing them. They're longer, but I think they can be replaced later.
Should bolts be used to replace rivets. No. However like the man opposed to capital punishment, yet who stands in the village square to watch the hanging, I bloody clipped that big-ass bolt on Zed-Em, damn straight I did!
One of the great problems among young climbers today is that they don't know a damn thing about ethics, because ethical concerns are no longer as important as they used to be. Someone wants to climb a hard route, so rather than grow bigger balls and a longer neck, instead they bolt the thing into submission and call it a sport route. Young climbers of today accept sport climbing as though it actually is acceptable, and for the most part, I disagree. Sport climbing is for pussies, mostly. [Note: I have been known to clip a bolt or two on a sport climb from time to time - miaow! Ditto the miaow! on clipping the shiny new bolt on Zed-Em above]
But it's because ethical concerns are no longer paramount that some young climbers today don't get it. however if you hang around this place, and listen to the Old Bulls, you may discover a new way of thinking, and learn that it's not that you reach the summit that counts, but rather how you do so.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 15, 2006 - 03:58pm PT
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Get a blog.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Let us know!