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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 28, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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Whoever you are, Mr. Ghost, YOU are my hero, currently. I wish I could write like that.
And I wish I could climb like you climb.
David Harris (former Vancouver resident and Squamish climber, now living in Seattle)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 28, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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Sorry, Dave - I don't quite follow. You seem to be saying that:
1. It's a matter of the rule of law, that is applying the Park Act, a provincial statute, to protect parks. A statute which on paper is black and white. A job for the provincial government, which has duties to consult, consider all the issues, interests and perspectives, etc.
2. It's a matter for local opinion to decide. The opinion of those live in a cave under a boulder at the Chief, i.e. "locals", is the deciding factor.
3. Other citizens shouldn't express their views, or suggest alternatives, and that it's somehow patronizing if they do.
I don't get it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 28, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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I don't get it.
I know.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 28, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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Well I used to live in a cave but now I'm in a house, made outta 2 x 6s. Trees, actually. Probably even B.C. trees, god forbid.
I'm not saying it's up to the locals only, just happy to offer my opinion.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
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Well, I've had a little experience, and even some success, helping to organize climbers and others for various worthwhile objects. So possibly I have some idea what I'm doing. Still, I'd welcome concrete suggestions on how to improve what I'm doing, bearing in mind real world constraints. Hopefully, in fact, the various organizations mentioned somewhere upthread will start to do their job and provide the needed leadership.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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It may even make things better, if it provides access to new crags and bike terrain up high.
So a gondola that opens up at 9am is going to allow you to ascend sky pilot?
Cypress and Seymour both provincial parks close their roads during non business hours to combat theft and vandalism, how do you think that will play out with the shannon creek road and our current access?
I am led to believe that these access roads will become non useable to the public, otherwise we could just drive up like we can pretty much do now.
Climbing and hiking on the Chief is such a noisy, crowded, urban experience now that the addition of the gondola will make zero difference.
So are many places, Joffre, Spearhead, Duffey, Skaha....if thats your argument where does it stop?
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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I don't think you've been able to drive up there for years. Dirtbike, perhaps.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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You love your Tacoma; how many Toyota shares do you own?
Sorry Jim, not trying to be snappy.
I think it's really hard to start and successfully run a business in this province/country. Just cause I think someone has a good idea doesn't mean I'm handing over my $.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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I'm basically feeling neutral about this with both sides having good points to their arguments.
My feeling, too. I know Anders thinks I've gone over to the Dark Side, and am pro-development, but that is not the case. My point is that there truly are arguments to be made both in favor of this particular development and against it, but that anybody who says "Whoever disagrees with me is wrong and evil" is not really making a point, but rather making an enemy.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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Hamish you can drive to the boulder blockade for the last few years and intermittently depending on who moves what you can make it to the memorial look out. Then of course sometime in the last 5 they turned the road beyond that into a single track.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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For anyone without a decent 4WD, the Shannon Creek Road been largely undriveable for a long time. I believe that's intentional, plus of course it would require significant maintenance to keep open. As others have mentioned, even with a serious 4WD, you may not get all that far.
Few gondola/lift companies seems to allow private vehicles on "their" roads. Hikers and often bikers are OK, but that's all. In this case, perhaps there'd be driveable public access to a point somewhere behind the Chief, higher than is usually the case now, but only foot or bicycle traffic after that. No idea what they'd do about the all terrain vehicle and motorcycle crowd.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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You should send in a photo of the vehicle that you drive up to that drainage. Just so everyone realizes how great that old road is...
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Mar 28, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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Are we talking about the same road to te memorial which is a few switch backs after the boulder blockade?
Its been fine for a long time, they log up there so the road just before the boulder blockade is 2wd. Then slightly rougher after and to the blockade.
Then after the blockade its pretty good till the memorial.
Here is what it looks like last year just after the boulder blockade
you dont need a 4x4 to make it to the blockade as of last summer.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 28, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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Well, I didn't have much luck trying to get my Matrix up there last summer. Not that I expected to. Stopped at the first steep/loose hill.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Mar 28, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
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I'm thinking we're comparing apples and oranges here. I meant vehicle, as in a heavy chunk of tin with 4 wheels. I see in your photo you're talking vehicle, as in, your bike. Sorry for the mis-communication.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Mar 28, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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Hamish thats the road just after the boulder blockade, sometimes you can drive past it but this time the boulders were to big. Otherwise you can drive right to the blockade.
Bruce the memorial is at the lookout where the car full of teens went over the edge....presumably the whole reason for the boulder blockade in the first place.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 28, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
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Squamish-Lillooet Regional District is meeting on Thursday April 19th, to discuss second reading of a rezoning bylaw for the proposed upper terminal. It’s at 7:00 PM at the Britannia Beach Community Centre, 70 Copper Drive. Proposed rezoning bylaws, or bylaws that would change the official community plan, go through three readings (at least), and I believe that at this one the public is permitted to speak. Could be interesting.
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Mar 28, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
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A couple of posts have spoken in favour of the gondola and then stated being adverse to Investing in this project.
This seems a little hard to reconcile. Any comments ?
I stated that I was predominantly neutral on the proposal thus far, but that I wouldn't invest in it. What I meant was that, without seeing what their real plans and ideas are in their business plan, it's hard to believe that it could be viable. Therefore, my hard earned money/ retirement nest-egg would not be invested there. That's all.
These guys have more related development experience than probably all of us posting on this subject combined. They state that they had the opportunity, and were looking world wide for a location to develop this idea, but in the end chose this location. I can only presume they have some decent reasoning behind their plan.
I still don't like the removal of Class A park land, but I'm not sure I can sit entirely on one side of the fence or the other with what I know right now.
Kris
(kickin' the soapbox back to the center of the room now)
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Mar 28, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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I am a survivor of the battle to protect the integrity of Strathcona Park (another "Class A" park). Here's an abbreviated history of what happened: after the "Parks Branch" was successfully lobbied by every cheap hustler in the mining business to open this area to development, the war began. I can't recall how many of my friends were arrested in the protests that erupted, but among the people who expressed their outrage at this desecration were more than a few second (and first) generation loggers and people who earned their living working in the mining industry, along with the "usual" environmentalists. They simply wanted their descendants to enjoy the same beauty that was available to them.
I feel that the core of the resistance to this (and the above)proposal is simple: Class "A" parks are expected to remain in the condition that existed when the boundaries were established, and remain that way in perpetuity. It is the responsibility of the Parks Branch to defend the integrity of such areas under their mandate. Period.
What's the crying need to add to the uglification of the Squamish Valley? Isn't it one of the core values of climbing to accept that great views are one of the many rewards of the effort required to reach them? I'm far too crappy a climber to haul myself up K2, but I have little doubt that the view from the top is magnificent. Maybe we should build a gondola over there as well, as I'm sure the locals could use the short-term employment, along with the minimum wage jobs generated from such a project.
Leave the place alone. If you're looking for a great view with no effort required and are among the lucky ones who can afford to pay for the ride, then perhaps you can drink in the view from Grouse Mountain or travel up to Whistler. Regardless, I am adamantly opposed to the rearrangement of Class "A" park boundaries to suit the needs of developers.
If the supporters of this project are so desperate to build a gondola, then build it somewhere else. There's not that much land under what passes for protection under the Parks Act.
Amen.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 28, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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They state that they had the opportunity, and were looking world wide for a location to develop this idea, but in the end chose this location.
It would be easy to say such a thing, perhaps in part to help market the idea. After all, if you say something is "world class" (one of the most overused adjectives on the planet), doesn't that puff it and everyone associated with it up?
What developers say, and what they have done and do, can be two different things. Sorry to be so skeptical, but I've met more than a few developers. It would be interesting to see what records they could produce of their alleged search - if any. It seems rather more likely that they knew of the 2004 proposal, often drove by Squamish and saw the site, and grabbed what they considered an opportunity. It's in Whistler's backyard. Why would they be looking elsewhere? And as they must have known that the site wasn't intended to be available for a gondola of any kind, you wonder what they knew about all that. You'd think that even the most determined developer, knowing that a) Squamish decisively rejected a similar project in 2004, b) the land was bought by an organization entrusted with ensuring it could never again pose a threat to the Parks, and c) that there was a restrictive covenant on the land to that end, wouldn't even bother.
Short of a court order, I doubt they'd disclose who their partners and investors (if any) are, whether they actually seriously considered other locations, how they came to acquire the gravel pit, their dealings with governments and The Land Conservancy, and related matters. (Although the governments might have to say, due to FoI, and TLC might want to.) If they ever claim they considered a Goat Ridge gondola but that it wasn't feasible, I'd ask for written proof, that is reports similar to those done for the location they now propose.
Developers = location + profit.
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