Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
|
'79 ? really ? that would be a big deal. never hear Skinner or Scarpelli talk about that one and spent quite a bit of time with both of them.
Jaybro
|
|
dogtown
Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
|
Does dreamcatcher fit in here some where?
|
|
Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
|
|
The Messner route I mentioned earlier is on a Dolomite face called the Sasso della Croce (Crosc)or the Heiligkreuzkofel. The route was climbed in 1968 with his brother Gunther and is rated UIAA VIII or F7a or 7a+ (11d/12a)with ledge-fall potential. It took Messner about an hour to work out the sequence on the FA, and was unrepeated in its original form for years despite numerous attempts by top climbers (most parties use a variation to the right).While this is a year or 2 after Macabre Roof, it is 1/2-way up a Dolomite wall in a serious position.
But when I was researching this climb, I came across an even more incredible ascent mentioned in an article on Planet Mountain. In 1934, Italian climber Raffaele Carlesso (a leading Dolomite activist of the period)climbed a route on the Torre Trieste which he said he climbed "barefoot and free" that is currently rated UIAA VIII- (11c or d)!!!!!
|
|
Erik
Trad climber
|
|
Didn't some monk in France put up a 5.13b route in the 1950s or 1960s on a rock wall behind his monastery? Seem to remember a Climbing mag article about it some years ago...
|
|
Michael Lecky
Mountain climber
Harvard, MA
|
|
Interesting to see Tony Yaniro's name pop up. My old friend David Scarbough and I took him on his first climb. Dave and I would prove to be alpine nonentities, but Tony went on to do things. Given what he was doing after about twenty minutes of tutoring, that's no surprise. I regularly receive Patagonia catalogs, and when I look at the photos of the free climbers (a now-redundant phrase), I want to reach for an incontinence pad. I struggled up 5.8 routes, shod in my PA's, and was thrilled with myself. Serphentine and Revelation were near-death experiences. I look back on that time in my life with very mixed feelings. I clung too long to something I wasn't cut out for, but did and saw things I wouldn't trade for the world. As Chris Bonnington put it, I chose to climb.
|
|
rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
|
|
"silver spot" has been hard since 1980 when I first was introduced to it. It EBs etc it would just be cruel. I have spent about two hours trying it in 1986 and kinda got nowhere. You need a cold, dry, day to even come close to sticking on it. Shitty rib on left for feet on mica-shist. It was rated "5.13" then.
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
Wizards of Rock has most or all of Greg Lowe's amazing free
climbs, and as noted Gill was doing some really hard things
most people didn't know about, way back when. I've mentioned
some of these in Wizards.
Higgins and Kamps should be given more room here, I think.
To understand these grades and climbs and their context with
each era, well in short 5.9 in the fifties was a significant
thing, and each new successive generation more or less "inherits"
the latest consciousness, training methods, gear and shoe
improvements, etc. It is difficult to say it was harder to
do 5.11 in the sixties than 5.9 in the fifties. Each new
generation is so benefitted by the "expanding" conscioiusness
of time.... Every climb is relative to its
day. Though a few climbs had small infractions of style,
they were still valid and very difficult for their day. In
1964 5.11 was done in Boulder Canyon, and in 1965 and '66
Eldorado had quite a number of 5.11 climbs, done mostly in
very good style (all things considered). The first 5.11s
in Yosemite were done in 1967, although both of those climbs
changed and could be later down-graded a bit.... That not
much is mentioned about Pratt's routes, such as Twilight Zone
is curious to me. And yes, Rodger, Rearick led Split Pinnacle
Lieback... So much more could be said... to
repeat stuff in Wizards....
A small note. When I led Supremacy Crack in
'66, I made it well past the 5.11 crux without a style flaw and only on
easy ground up high took a short rest after I fiddled too long to get a
piton in that strangely tapered crack. Even Royal, a stickler for style,
felt it was a valid ascent and gave me credit for it. It was the hardest
climb of its day, many believed (aside from the Thimble). But the point I
want to make is that I returned soon and led the climb without a flaw.
So that return ascent validates the climb, in the strictest sense,
if anyone wants to find fault with the earlier style flaw. I did the same
thing with several other 5.11 routes at the time, went up, did the 5.11
crux, then took a more or less unnecessary rest on some 5.8 move
briefly, but for argument's sake returned and led without a
rest. Royal's lead of Athlete's Feat, in 1964, now rated 5.11 (with added
bolts), was one of the hardest climbs on the planet in its day.
|
|
pk_davidson
Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
|
|
Every climb is relative to its day.
Buried in Pat's post is one of the most pertinent statements to the thread.
|
|
AE
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
I'm surprised Sphinx Crack's left out, especially as I recall Bruce, you may have placed the original bolt over the roof as a hanging belay point?
I think Steve Hong freed the route, albeit as 2 pitches, circa 1979, and only Yuki H. has ever on-sighted it as one pitch, with tons of beta and gear advice to work with.
5.13c was the consensus last time I looked, which certainly puts it in contention as the hardest crack climb in the U.S., if not the world, at the time. It's reputation attracted some of the strongest climbers but spit them all off on the onsight attempts- maybe even Wolfgang, and Kurt, if I remember right?
Pat's point is apropo, especially when each decade has reflected different emphases(?), from face-climbing to off-widths to sport, etc. Very few bolt-clippers are likely to relish a Pratt off-width testpiece, but that's part of the beauty of the diverse world of climbing.
One should be wary of placing too much trust in the really old, apocryphal tales, given the unreliable chain of witnesses and details to verify reports. Preuss's routes excepted, because he mostly soloed - one could argue his death verified all his earlier ascents.
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
another very early 5.10---the Jam Box, climbed by Tony Soler in 1951
What became of Tony Soler? Anyone know? I missed meeting him, but had a pair of his Spiders at one point. Really, really stiff if I recall correctly.
|
|
mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
Oh, Patrick, there is an absolutely charming type in your excellent, excellent post: "...down-grated..."
Like what happens if you fall on a Tuolumne knob climb?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
jstan might remember something, though I'd be amazed if he had any interest in this topic.
Indeed. I ask you. Starting in kindergarten we have to compete with other kids. And hit benchmarks
set for us by others. Why in god's name would anyone want to take all of this baloney into climbing?
Where the challenge itself was set millions of years ago by nature herself?
You know how hard you worked out during the week and you know there were no cheats on the
weekends. Was there progress or was there not? It all gets really simple, and answerable.
Glorious.
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
Typo corrected.
More ramblings...
One point I have tried to make in the past. Some climbs are done
in imperfect style. Yet they are still vital contributions and
important. When you are in the limelight, the stylistic flaws
will be emphasized while other climbs done perfectly are
forgotten. This may be a sad
reality of the competitive spirit....
Another point, sometimes a climb is done in good style up to a point. But
then, say, a rest is taken on a piece of gear. On at least
two or three routes I did in Eldorado in the mid-1960s, I led
the 5.11 section in good style and then, for one
reason or another, took a brief rest on some kind of much
easier section. Cub Schaefer gave me a pair of
lightweight mountain boots to try out. I wore them when I went up to
try Vertigo. Even though the climb was quite a bit more difficult in
these boots, I managed the 5.11 section first try. Higher, though,
where one normally stems out wide, to either side, and can get an
almost arms-free rest or two, those boots made smearing and
such stem-rests virtually impossible (at least for me).
I ended up liebacking on otherwise moderate ground
that should have been relatively straightforward. Consequently
I got very pumped. So I rested with
my hand on a carabiner on a piton on a
5.8 move. I recognized at the time that I was capable of doing the
lead without a rest, had I been in my normal climbing shoes and also
not had to hang there by one arm and hammer in the pitons from
which decades of subsequent climbers would benefit and
simply clip.
I did return soon after and did the climb without that rest.
But people argued I didn't do the climb free, because of that first
slightly flawed ascent. I later realized I should have
listed the climb as 5.11, A1. I mean, the 5.11 section didn't go
away just because I rested on the 5.8 section above. Had I rested
in the middle of the 5.11 section, that would have been another
matter. I did manage to do that whole 5.11 part, then in
1966, and rest or no rest it was one of the first 5.11s in the
country. One could accurately say I didn't do the whole pitch free, on
that first attempt, and only the 5.11 section. But I DID do the 5.11,
and that was just as difficult whether or not I rested above
on easier rock.
It would have been more accurate to say I free climbed the route
my second attempt, on a different day. Maybe
it would compare to a climber doing a 5.11 section
on a difficult Yosemite route but
taking a rest on an easier section. They still would have done 5.11.
In 1965 and 1966, 5.11 had not been done, other than by John Gill,
possibly by Greg Lowe... Royal's Athlete's Feat, well, that was close
to 5.11, in 1964, but in general the grade of 5.11 had not
yet arrived. It was a grade our culture had not yet achieved,
for the most part. So to do it was significant.
As for Supremacy Crack, many very strong climbers looked at it. Those
who tried it, such as Rearick, couldn't touch it... with a top rope.
And he, for example, was proficient on 5.10. Even in the 1970s I watched
Wunsch and many others of the new guard swing off Supremacy,
unable to climb it.
To lead it was a whole different matter, because the crack has an
unusual, weird taper inside, and it's very difficult to get in
pitons. I spent a long time hanging with one arm, in order to fit
the two halfway decent pitons I placed for the first 40 feet.
Even the last, third, piton, on the
easier section above, was a little sketchy. I placed it with the second
piton below my feet. I was looking at a bad fall. But I was well above
the 5.11 section. Like Vertigo, I rested briefly right there, on that
5.8 section, so it wasn't perfect style. Similar to Vertigo, I
returned and led Supremacy without the rest. Again, had I thought to
do it, I could have listed that leading ascent as 5.11, A1. I
knew, though, I would return and eliminate the rest. My partners couldn't
follow the pitch with a top-rope. That too was 1966. Back then, I
didn't take the ascent very seriously, since it is a relatively short
route (a sixty-foot very overhanging hand crack). It got its reputation
as a result of those who tried it and failed. It was quite a while before
anyone repeated the route, even by top-rope. To lead it, in the
methods of that day, with pitons and hammer, is closer
to 5.11d than 5.11b.
When Lynn Hill and I climbed Supremacy one year, a couple decades
after the first ascent, she fired in Friends easily, not to mention her
skinny hands that she sank to the elbow! It's hard to look back
accurately and know how difficult climbs were, in their day. While I
appreciate you, Clint, I don't think you quite have the right
understanding of Supremacy, its history, or its place along the
spectrum of difficulty. Supremacy
was the top of the standard. Of that, I think I can safely say.
Many climbs fall into this category of being profound but which
are not accurately perceived in retrospect. Something like
the Mechanics Route, for example, at Tahquitz was a significant
achievement, despite how we view its rating from the vantage point
of present time....
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Cool, lots more interesting early hard climbs to add. Here's what I added to my version of the list:
6c+ (5.11c) 1934 south wall Torre Trieste, Dolomites Raffaele Carlesso, barefoot
6b+ (5.10d) 1965 Twilight Zone Yosemite Chuck Pratt
6c/6c+ (5.11b/c) 1966 Supremacy Crack Eldorado Pat Ament, led clean after toprope in 1965, and led with rest on rope earlier in 1966
6c (5.11) 1967 Slack Center Yosemite Pat Ament, flake removed shortly after and is now 5.10d
7a (5.11d) 1968 Pilastro di Mezzo, Messner Slab Sass dla Crusc, Dolomites Reinhold Messner
7a (5.11d) 1971 Persistence Shawangunks John Stannard
7c+ (5.13a) about 1979 Yasha Hai Vedauwoo Japanese climber
8a (5.13b) 1981 Sphinx Crack South Platte (CO) Steve Hong
8b/8b+ (5.13d/5.14a) 1987 Tour de Jour Yellow Bluff (AL) Jesse Guthrie
8c (5.14b) 1994 Super Tweak Logan Canyon (UT) Boone Speed
[edited]
Not sure what to do with Nat's Traverse; it's nice but doesn't fit into this list very well.
As for trying to capture the difficulty of doing the climbs with the gear of the time, that can get very hard to measure.
So instead, my version of this list attempts to make a strange mix of a current consensus rating for the climb in its original condition (i.e. before key broken holds) but with today's gear.
Usually the original ascents with worse gear were as hard or harder than today.
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
jstan might remember something, though I'd be amazed if he had any interest in this topic.
Indeed. I ask you. Starting in kindergarten we have to compete with other kids. And hit benchmarks set for us by others. Why in god's name would anyone want to take all of this baloney into climbing? Where the challenge itself was set millions of years ago by nature herself?
You know how hard you worked out during the week and you know there were no cheats on the
weekends. Was there progress or was there not? It all gets really simple, and answerable.
Glorious.
Still, I remember you pointing out Silver Spot to me when we climbed together at Carderock 30 years ago. You said "that thing is really hard, I've only managed to do it a couple of times." Then you added, "of course, I've only been on it a couple of times."
zing.
Curt
|
|
Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
|
|
I love climbing history. My input, for what it's worth:
I believe there was some talk earlier in the thread about Grand Illusion, and whether it was a sport climb or not. Obviously, it's protected with natural gear, but if I'm not mistaken, the first ascents were made on pre-placed gear. The first ascent made while placing the gear was by Hidetaka Suzuki. Year?
The first 14b in the world, Wallstreet, was climbed by Wolfgang Gullich in 1987, in the Frankenjura.
As far the US goes, the hardest route in the US from 1992 to 1996 was Just Do It by J.B. Tribout at Smith Rocks. Though Necessary Evil at the Virgin River Gorge is given the same grade (14c), Chris Sharma considered it a more difficult route when he sent it in '96.
Before Just Do It, Tribout's To Bolt or Not To Be was the first 14a in the US in 1986. I once heard that Kauk had a very fast repeat of this route (like a few tries in a day kind of a thing). Does anyone know the back story on Kauk's ascent? There is a picture of Kauk on it in the 2nd edition of Largo's oh-so-awesome How to Rock Climb. I remember gawking at that picture in wonder in '92 when I started climbing. Kauk is the bad mofo of bad mofos, IMHO. Has anyone even gotten off the ground on Magic Line anyways?! That thing must be ridic or them young'uns are plain skeerd.
Finally, I believe Boone Speed's Super Tweek at Logan Canyon was the first 14b in the US, but it was climbed after Just Do It (in '94), so it doesn't make the list; but is still super cool.
|
|
Chauncey
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2012 - 04:18am PT
|
Any Henry Barber routes make the list?
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
|
As long as boulder problems are being mentioned, how about Nat's Traverse (V8 or 5.13b) done in 1976 at Mortar Rock in Berkeley, Ca by Nat Smale?
Go Nat! See him around SLC from time to time. Still wrasslin' pebbles...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!