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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:04pm PT
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Ron, is your opposition to Black Diamond based solely on the fact that it has some of its products manufactured in China, or are there other reasons?
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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Ron is an all American gun toting western guy. Or they didn't give him any free gear.
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Yamabushi
Mountain climber
Silverton/Durango
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Nov 21, 2011 - 04:59am PT
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as far as i know, re-slinging of their cams are still done here in u.s. at slc. all the camalot owners should re-sling their cams for one more time before they lose that facility here. just like when you want to send any chinese made stuff (patagonia, tnf included) for repair they usually give you a new one instead of repairing it since the cost is usually cheaper to give a new one than repairing something with american labor.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 21, 2011 - 05:23am PT
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Copied from the crampon thread, hopefully for transparency...
What about CMAC adding a section to his gear reviews that provides information about the manufacturing practices of the gear makers.
That might be nuts, but didn't someone posit, "It takes balls to use nuts"? It might spark an interesting conversation with Jello, get some Patagonia traffic, or?
I once talked to an Asian business studies prof. He said he would choose Vietnam over China.
CMAC?, calling Mr. CMAC?
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Nov 21, 2011 - 09:42am PT
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Patagonia has that video series called the footprint chronicles. Very interesting how and where something is made. It's not just a "Made in China" situation. Often, parts come from all over and are assembled somewhere else. It's interesting...
In that same vein, when the BD C4s in China thing first became "controversial" 4 or 5 years ago, (yeah this is OLD news) I thought someone threw out the story that cam PARTS are still made in the USA then shipped overseas for final assembly before being shipped back?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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I am calling for an ST protest:
From now on when referring to Black Diamond in an ST post with an abbreviation I will only do it in lower case.
Take that bd.
Fight the power.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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gf,
Thanks for a thoughtful and well-expressed post. Most refreshing.
Earlier in this thread I noted my friend's problems there. His company has
decided to manufacture their more critical items in Taiwan where they have
had much better results with quality. They're willing to pay a little more
for peace of mind.
Humorous side story -
On a tour of a plant there Jon was walking along thinking the slab looked
awfully 'green'. After gazing upwards at the steel rising far above his head
he used his shoe to create a respectably sized divot in the weeks-old slab.
His well-educated opinion was there was little, if any, cement in the concrete.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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I'm sure in ten years bd will simply be making their overpriced gloves and ski boots that you can buy at any "sporting goods" shop.
Edit: I bet the hooks and pins will be the first thing they chop, since REI doesn't sell them anymore.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 21, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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The fascinating thing about the east coast and central china right now is the acute labour shortage. The one child policy has created a nation of "little emperors" whose parents and 4 grandparents dote on their every move and pour all their energy into helping them get good school test results. The net result is a nation of memorizers who can get into decent schools but view any kind of "boring" work as beneath them Hey I got an idea. How about they ship all of their jobs that they don't want to do over here.
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Vin
Trad climber
Louisiana
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Nov 21, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
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I have to say it does make me a little nervous. I wanted to point out that stating ISO 9001 certification really isn't much. This just shows that a process is repeatable per company standard. That process could include stamping a biner, taking a swig of beer and then stamping the next. As long as you follow your set process, you are ISO 9001. While getting ISO 9001 certified is a very strenuous process, it really means nothing unless the certified processes are known.
As far as the 3 sigma goes, I believe they are using the Interference Theory of Reliability Prediction, which is exactly that...a hypothetical prediction. So if I'm correct, 3 sigma roughly translates to between a 0.2% and 0.1% chance of failure. Giving BD the edge and assuming 0.1% chance of failure and say 500,000 units produced means 500 will hypothetically fail...It's really the nature of the beast, and while this is just a prediction, BD really does put their product through constant strenuous testing to ensure that failures do not occur and that defective parts are not circulated into production. I also think they proof test each cam which consists of loading the device to a point below the yield stress(i.e. failure point) of the weakest component...if they don't, they really should.
As far as the materials go, I am a design engineer and I do a lot of work overseas. We can't use Chinese steel or other metals because it is notoriously under rated, poorly manufactured and unable to meet stress testing required for material tracing in the components and structures we design...Not Saying BD uses Chinese materials, in fact I'm sure they import their materials for this same reason, probably from Germany(really great metallurgists).
I think that BD has a good grip on being, what I believe to be, the best manufacturer of climbing gear. I hardly think they would overlook the product of a new production facility without ensuring that the products are the best that they can be. If my cams come from china, and have a legit BD stamp, I'll continue to plug and go. But I hope the ones I purchase are from the US, I'd rather keep the money at home.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 21, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
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I worked for two manufacturing companies in Silicon Valley when they went through their ISO 9001 certification in the early 90's.
The best summation of ISO 9001 is that after certification the company will still make the same crap they always did with the same quality (or lack of quality) but they will thoroughly document how they make their crap, and it will be more expensive to cover the ISO overhead.
To me quality doesn't just happen, it has to be ingrained in a corporate culture. Too often I've experienced management that is more concerned with short term performance numbers to make themselves look good by taking long term shortcuts in safety and quality.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
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miwuk
I bet the hooks and pins will be the first thing they chop, since REI doesn't sell them anymore.
one last post. if i remember...look up the source
in college i learned miwuk means people
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:17am PT
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@ Vin - 3 Sigma doesn't mean that 0.1% will FAIL catastrophically as you seem to imply, simply that they won't meet their STATED rating.
Cribbed from another site to save time...
Example: Carabiner Ratings
Engineers test a random sample of carabiners under international standards using a machine called a tensile tester, which literally stretches the carabiners until they break. They determine the average, or mean, breaking strength of the batch. From this data they also calculate the average deviation from the mean, called the "standard deviation," symbolized by the Greek letter sigma. The standard deviation represents the variation of breaking strengths within a given group of samples. If the biners are rated three standard deviations less than the average breaking strength, 99.87% of the biners will be stronger than the rating.
So let's say we break 20 biners with an average strength of 6000 lb, and with a standard deviation of 100 lb. The Three Sigma rating would be 6000 - (3 x 100), or 5700 lb. The Three Sigma standard tells us that only 2 in a batch of 1000 biners might not meet the 5700 lb rating.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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Isn't that the key?
There's no such thing as risk-free. I thought this was why we use redundancy...
If the metal is crap, won't that surface in the testing?
If other manufacturers aren't using 3-sigma or doing consistent QA pull testing, how do we know their biners are any better than those of the manufacturer who is?
The only way to know how strong something actually is requires destruction. Statistical assurance and batch sampling all but eliminates the chance that something bogus makes it to the field, but if you work in any sort of manufacturing environment you will be humbled by the bizarre sets of circumstances that allow chinks in that armor to show up.
All that said, the number of cams that have fallen apart in the field is rather low. A few aliens died. A few link cams shattered. There simply isn't a rash of dead climbers due to bad gear. Vigilance is still absolutely needed, but I don't see the need for any alarm over any particular manufacturer.
I still wait a year before buying any new shiny object after their release. Unexpected things come up like the GriGri 2, recalled biners, recalled cams, etc. No need to be a guinea pig...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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The only way to be assured that climbing gear is safe is that there is 100% proof testing. This is done in the firearms industry, every firearm is tested with a proof load, a load that is above the working load, but under the yield strength of the gun. If the gun is defective, it will be discovered by proof testing.
But due to cost savings, the climbing industry does not do 100% proof testing. 3 sigma does not mean that there will be no defective gear sold, only that statistically it will be unlikely. If there are 1 or 2 biners out of a lot that have defects and they don't fall into the random sample, then they will not be found.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
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The reason is not cost savings. It's because testing to half strength is all you want to do without damaging the gear. Any more would be a somewhat destructive test. It's still good enough for a "proof" test and is well above "typical" working load.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
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China has a reputation for producing shoddy dangerous products and taking shortcuts whenever they can. That is not a stereotype, it's well documented.
So, can you provide docmentation of Swiss, British, French or other European manufacturing countries that have put poison in food products, lead in children's toys, or substituted inferior metals when producing fasteners etc?
It comes down to a country with a history of getting away with whatever they can, and other countries that try their best to produce quality products.
I've been involved in manufacturing and either a company and it's employees have a quality mindset, or they don't. No program is going to instill something that is counter to the corporate culture.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
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China has a reputation for producing shoddy dangerous products and taking shortcuts whenever they can. That is not a stereotype, it's well documented.
You CAN NOT simplify it that much and that's what most if not all this debate about BD (and many other climbing companies) boils down to. You MIGHT be able to stereotype as certain industry or production sector but you simply cannot lump all things China into shoddy/dangerous/shortcuts.
Nearly all of Apple Inc's products are made in China (iPhone, MacBooks etc) and their quality is second to none in most cases. These are products FAR more complicated than a cam or biner. Heck, the PACKAGING most products come in is often better than some competitors actual item. This doesn't happen without massive control of your production process.
So I look at the company I purchase from as much as the Product itself.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
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Chiounard used to load ALL their biners to half strength. there was a visible dent on the boner that proved it had been tested.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
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You are confusing us with facts....but thanks for your comments
Another fact that is often forgotten is that Chinese manufacturers, like manufacturers everywhere, make products according to specifications given to them by their customers.
So when the made-in-China 29-piece tool set you bought at Wal-Mart for $14.99 turns out to be junk, you might ask why before reflexively blaming shoddy manufacturing in China.
Much of that sort of shoddy garbage is spec'ed to be shoddy garbage by companies like Wal-Mart, because they know that their customers are too short-sighted to ever ask how a 29-piece tool set can possibly sell for $15.
Edit to add: This is not to say their aren't plenty of people in China who are willing to cut corners and deliver sub-spec goods. But such people exist in all countries -- including the US.
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