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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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I fully understand what you are saying, healyje.
If the fetus/child (whatever) is in her womb, it can be killed. If it is outside her womb, it can't.
That is EXACTLY what you are saying and I find that to be an interesting perspective.
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WBraun
climber
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Without understanding the real science of the soul and it’s real constitutional position we will never come to the understanding of what is going on here.
We will always remain bewildered by the powerful illusionary energy which keeps us firmly bound to the dualistic material world.
The knowledge of the soul is a descending process not ascending like the mental speculation which aims at ascending to the knowledge. (The real knowledge is already there fully)
Have fun trying to figure it out on your own with mental speculation and the limitations of material science.
I guarantee failure.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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TradIsGood - I mean...
If you asked 100 women how many abortions they had had in their life, and you asked 100 men how many abortions a woman had had, with them as the male partner, in their life, I am betting that men, on average, would have had more.
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WBraun
climber
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Abortion is the number one cause of death in the United States ...
The figures below do not count illegal or unreported deaths due to abortions, nor the deaths of mothers because of abortions nor a higher incidence of breast cancer later due to abortions.
Below is a partial list:
* Induced abortion 1,508,651
* Cardiovascular diseases 948,088
* Cancer (all types) 529,904
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner, And I unfortunately can guarantee ten thousand plus Indian women and girls murdered and maimed this year because of just such beliefs.
The statistic is sad, but I still prefer that statistic to women being put back under male domination that rules what they can and can not do with their bodies.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Happie, on average, assuming honest answers, you would lose your bet.
Rajmit, you need to get back to work on math!
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WBraun
climber
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Healyje
Just try to understand I'm not involved with what you are talking about.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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why do you say that TIG? - the last (and only, actually) guy I asked that question told me the answer, for him, was 6......
....actually - we could gp to Surveymonkey.com and create a survey, couldn't we.....
EWhy yes, we could.
Alas, I have to go walk a dog. And then I'm going to the gym. As well, I am not sure I am adept enough at making that survey thing work. But - if somebody wants to in the meanwhile....it's free, for a 10 question survey, with up to 100 respondants.
The questions should be, I think:
1) Are you:
_Male
_female
2) How many abortions have you had/or has a woman had due to being inseminated with your sperm?(*If you do not know the answer, please do not participate in the survey.)
_0
_1
_2
_3
_4
_5
_6
_7
_8
_9
_10 or more
* Though there will be some men who cannot be aware if an abortion was performed due to being inseminated with their sperm, for the puroses of this poll, this isn't relative)
waddya think?
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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To repeat: if Roe is overturned, I guarantee that there will be a push for a Constitutional Amendment to legalize abortion for whatever reason during the first and second tri-mesters of pregnancy. That's the process the Founders gave us to accomodate social change. They knew that as times changed, some values would change. They knew that the Constitution was not perfect, that their wisdom was finite, and Constitutional modification would ne necessary. To ignore the Constitutional process they gave us is dangerous in the long run. What some judges decide to give us one day by ignoring the Constitutional process--something we like--sets a precedent that can be followed by other judges giving us something we despise. It's a simple concept.
Our Constitution is the foundation that our republic stands upon. Each time judges of any persuasion twist it out of shape, spin it, outflank it, go under it or over it or just turn a blind eye to it because those judges, at that moment in time, feel they know what's best, it erodes its integrity just as termites do the integrity of a house. You then no longer have a constitution; you have rule by an oligarchy; you no longer live in a democracy.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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No one ever is Werner, no one ever is. Ditto for Christian-led genocides - it's always those "other" [dubious] Christians...
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stinky
climber
Guymon OK
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I come out strongly for post-natal abortion.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Woody, it is politics and religion that "cloud" the truth that needs to be exposed about abortion. Otherwise anger and dogmatic stubborness will continue to plague this problem...and it is the pregnant women that suffer in the end.
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WBraun
climber
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Christian-led genocides? What are you talking about?
Are you trying to imply I am a Christian?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Woody: "Our Constitution is the foundation that our republic stands upon. Each time judges of any persuasion twist it out of shape, spin it, outflank it, go under it or over it or just turn a blind eye to it because those judges, at that moment in time, feel they know what's best, it erodes its integrity just as termites do the integrity of a house."
Tell that to the Bush administration and to their judges, both represent the most radical activists undermining the Constitution and this nation at every turn. Did you bother to read any of ex-Administration Lawyer and neocon "legal scholar" John Yoo's interpretations of Executive power straight from the British monarchy? No? Then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. And for that matter if you actually read the majority and minority opinions in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore#The_decision" target="_blank"]Gore v. Bush[/url] (both very short) you'd find that was also a radically activist, anti-States Rights opinion.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Healyje ditto to you...clouding the topic with politics...tis shame.
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stinky
climber
Guymon OK
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In my smelly opinion, the abortion debate falls flat because both sides are unwilling to come to terms with their own existential angst.
It is unreasonable to decide when "life" begins if each of us does not explicitly know what it is to be alive. Until there is a elevation of the human condition, we are all acting on "I know it when I see it" definition of human life. The problem then is one of different perceptions of self, and is not one any social institution can resolve.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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so the debate, anger, killings should continue?
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WBraun
climber
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Yes stinky that is good observation
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner - no, I'm simply pointing out you simply can't find a christian anywhere today that owns all the genocides committed in christ's name including the ongoing assult today on indigenous cultures worldwide...
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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In the end, it comes down to this: There will be the attempt at a pro-abortion amendment; if it passes, it becomes part of the Constitution and the law of the land. If it doesn't, each state will establish its own laws dealing with abortion; and the vast majority will legalize it to a degree; some will not. Either way, that's the way the system should work; and we will live with it whether or not we like it. Democracies live through the rule of law and compromise; no matter how it turns out, there will be those that will have to swallow something they don't like.
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