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Ol' Skool

Trad climber

Oakhurst, CA

Sep 16, 2011 - 02:34am PT

Ruppell-
Absolute agreement. However, I'd argue that the mind game would be far more intense leaving the ground knowing that the bolt wasn't there (as opposed to having an "optional" clip, ace in the hole fallback)- therefore not the same experience.

Mighty Hiker- enjoyed the link- another reinforcement to the idea that any route is ever changing and bolts aren't as fail safe as the day they were done- another variable that takes us away from the "original" experience.

ruppell

climber

Sep 16, 2011 - 02:49am PT

Ol' skool

Yeah totally different mindset leaving the ground KNOWING that bolt is not there. That's why it becomes in issue in the first place. Fact is Barber never agreed to have that bolt placed. Someone did it to make themselves feel better about the fact they couldn't do the route in it's original style. Without that added bolt a very select few climbers do the route. Simply because they KNOW it is not there. Now people feel robbed of an experience that wasn,t the true experience.

rokjox

And OK, I change my position on the issue,

I know it's out of context but holly shiit? Never thought I'd here those words from you.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Sep 16, 2011 - 03:01am PT

some dakotans care what you think. I have not done the route and now am sure I never will.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Sep 16, 2011 - 03:04am PT

Ol'skool, a climber really ought to know better than to refer to other climbers as "death-wish masochists." There is hardly a trad climb in the world that doesn't have a potentially dangerous runout somewhere; and every such instance is as much an invitations to death-wish masochism as anything on Henry's Superpin route. It follows that the entire sport could easily be characterized as death-wish masochism, and surely is by those who do not understand it.

As for "snapshot or video," a climb is nothing like either. It is a piece of stone, that ought to be left alone as much as possible, in my opinion. And really, is a climb supposed to sprout a bolt at every place someone not up to it has an epic? Is that really the "video" modern climbers want for their resources?

Mighty, I anticipated the link to the museum climb thread in my previous post. The "museum climb" on Superpin is Cleveland's original route, which has never been repeated and which no one has ever considered bolting.

The Barber variation goes at a reasonable grade for runout climbing, and, with multiple repeats, was not destined for museum status when the climb was in its original unbolted state.

ruppell

climber

Sep 16, 2011 - 03:17am PT

rgold

As for "snapshot or video," a climb is nothing like either. It is a piece of stone, that ought to be left alone as much as possible, in my opinion. And really, is a climb supposed to sprout a bolt at every place someone not up to it has an epic? Is that really the dynamic evolution modern climbers want for their resources?

Is that what modern climbers want? For the most part yes. Safe = Fun. The issue again is that this bolt sprouted up 34 years ago. Everyone who has done the route since then has done it in an altered state. They probably didn't even know it was altered. Take that bolt away and people feel a right of intitlement to have it there. I think this may be the real issue. You did it in it's original state. PROUD. Now I have a chance to do it in that same state. Will I take up the challenge or will I be one who cries the bolt should be replaced? That is the modern climber.

Edited to add this

http://www.dynamicfitnessonline.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/i-can-do-anything.gif

steveA

Trad climber

bedford,massachusetts

Sep 16, 2011 - 06:23am PT

I remember sitting next to climber, who I didn't know, in a crowded room, discussing the ethics and tradition of climbing. There were perhaps 120 climbers gathered there.

This guy leaned over to me and seriously said that he felt that he had the right to put a bolt in anywhere he wanted--even on an established route!

Obviously, this climber's opinion is in the minority; to the extreme. It is rare to see a bolt placed on a well established route and I hope the tradition continues.

David Groth

Trad climber

Sep 16, 2011 - 08:55am PT

Don’t forget Barber did not do the first assent of super pin! The pin he clipped to get on the route was put in by Pete Cleveland. The Cleveland route starts at the Barber route and wraps the spire by some 5.11 variation done in 1967. I have done the route several times and think it possible Pete climbed the Barber route; it is the obvious path of least resistance. Barber adds a bolt to the spire. The third assent added one more, the story I have always heard is a local climber got freaked out and friends swung in a bolt kit. Yes the rules were broken back in the early 80’s and that bolt has been replaced at least once allowing tons of climbers to enjoy the classic spire. I am not saying I agree with what happened and when I did it a few years later thought it was lame. But the damage was done why add to it!
In my humble option he would have right to chop the added bolt but not the whole route. But 34 years later it just seems like it should left alone. In addition the history in my option is not completely clear which should give Barber reason to leave it alone. I asked Pete to chime it but admire his silence.
Adding fix gear to an established route is wrong with out the First ascent permission we all know that! This one fall into a little different category in my option and I think a lot of climbers feel that way. I wanted to defend my cut and paste of “who cares” it is a complicated debate.
DG

Dingus McGee

Social climber

Laramie

Sep 16, 2011 - 09:01am PT

Rgold and others,

Rgold where is your spine? You seem to brag about having never chopped a bolt yet you want others to do the chopping. Is this a sham?

Mission Accomplished-- A friend of mine from the Black Hills ask me to argue their case of 34 years of autonomy with the Superpin Bolt on Super Topo site because there was not much input coming from the Mountain Project site. I have tried to express some of the locals points of view having grown up some 40 miles from the Needles. Mike Todd may have put the bolt in for the safety of others. I do not know what his motives were--kind of a quiet fellow.

What I have argued are not my concerns over this bolt. My attitude about route issues is quite private but I will say I do what I want to after some thought. I would rather be putting up routes and that is what I have been doing the last 34 years. What happens to others' routes is of little concern to me and what happens to the routes of my bygone days is of little concern to me. Top priority to me is redpointing the last few lines I have been working on. I will let others manage my past efforts as they please.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 16, 2011 - 10:12am PT

After 34 years it seems a bit like an attempt to get back in the spotlight......

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Sep 16, 2011 - 10:17am PT

Why yes!

Kris Gorny

Trad climber

Rochester, MN

Sep 16, 2011 - 10:51am PT

Dave G, so help me get two things straight here, Henry Barber had all bolts chopped, including the one he used himself on his ascent? And second, it is actually Pete Cleveland who may have got the first ascent on what is now known as Henry Barber's route?

Hard Rock

Trad climber

Montana

Sep 16, 2011 - 10:58am PT

I solved the Chalk Wars back in the 80's -
see CLIMBING - April 1984 Issue 83 so I might have a
couple of ideas that will help here.

1) Have a bolt war with yourself.
See http://millcreekreport.blogspot.com/2010/12/bolt-war-of-one.html

2) As I've told friend who were in Boulder when they were having bolt wars - Just come to Montana and we will give you your own piece of rock. Then you can just go with you own ethics.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Sep 16, 2011 - 11:00am PT

This too shall pass. I trust not too many of the brethren will suffer thru a sleepless night because of the demise of that lonely bolt.

I know I won't.

Good one Jim.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Sep 16, 2011 - 11:49am PT

Wow, wish a guy well and he calls you spineless and a sham. I guess its a good thing I didn't insult him, eh?

Dingus, I've done a lot of routes in the Needles. But I live in New York, 2,0000 miles away, and have always thought of myself as a visitor. I would never chop a bolt in the Needles, that option is up to the locals.

I'm really sorry you felt the need to take a cheap shot. I do obviously have opinions about the situation, which I have recorded here, perhaps immoderately. If that makes me "spineless" and my opinions a "sham," then so be it, but a person who now says he is only arguing as a proxy for others and that his own opinion is "private" might pause and reflect on his own authenticity and courage before publicly proclaiming those qualities to be lacking in others.

A number of responses to my posts seem to me to misunderstand what I've said. So let me try to be as clear as possible.

1. My opinion is that the locals should have chopped that bolt the day after it was placed, most especially in view of how it got there, as recounted by Dingus. (I saw Paul Muehl do exactly that on another route, by the way, so there is certainly local precedent for immediate action.) Do the current locals have "autonomy" in this situation? Yes. Did they do they right thing? Well, not in my book.

2. Now that the bolt (or bolts) have been in place for 34 years, they have become a feature of the route for more than one climbing generation and ought to have been left in place.

From everything I can tell, the Barber variation on Superpin is one of several routes with moderate climbing that were climbed for years in their natural state and then were bolted one day by a self-appointed guardian of public safety. One cannot help but marvel at the collective resolve of the climbing communities in the UK and Dresden for their abilities to preserve their routes, in some cases for a century, in the same state as the first ascenders encountered. It is clear that the locals in the Needles have decided to leave a very different legacy.

Kris, Pete's route and Henry's variation diverge after the initial moves; Pete did not stay left on the blunt arete where Henry went. There was initially a fixed pin that both Pete and Henry clipped. It may be that Pete placed the pin, but I doubt it. He was not the first person to consider a route on Superpin, and indeed some famous and very accomplished climbers had had a look before Pete's astonishing success. I think the fixed pin was replaced by a bolt later on as the placement deteriorated, with no one on any side of the various issues complaining about that.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Sep 16, 2011 - 11:52am PT

Things that make you go, "hmmm...".

Interesting.

I've always wondered if climbers have more rules to follow than golf...

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Sep 16, 2011 - 12:10pm PT

Well the rest of us still luvs you Rgold. Maybe even more now.

They say "opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone has one and they all stink", but yours doesn't, it's only true for the rest of us as#@&%es:-)

Thanks!

BTW, it looks like the locals want a bunch of non-locals to weight in on this issue, you, more than most here, should have serious weight on it. Henry, were here here, would weigh more than the rest of us. In fact, I believe he does these dayz. LOL

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Sep 16, 2011 - 12:22pm PT

Yeah, rules.

The one I've always appreciated is honesty. Just report what happened, "right" or "wrong". Can be fairly murky. I tend to sort things black or white, but, that can be hard to do from a distance (and even harder from close up sometimes!).

Even though it doesn't seem so at times, spraying about a topic on the 'net, isn't nearly as personal as either adding a bolt, or, removing one.

We do tend to go the rounds on this stuff. Glass half full, I suppose, but, its part of our passion of this "leisure time" activity. Its good.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 16, 2011 - 01:05pm PT

DMT, Unfortunatly I think you are wrong on this one. We have and entite asshat full to the brim of unwriten rules many of which are completly assanine. Just because these rulze are unwritten does not in any way shape or form mean that they are not Rules and enforced rules at that. heck you can even get shat appon for breaking our damn rules.........