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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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Sorry, I've been in the field all week.
Response to how dad survived-
They had read in the pilot books that the natives were hostile which rings true for many island chains when looking at 1800's pilot books.
After sailing for a few years trying to find the most remote areas he could they happened upon North Sentinel. The pilot books warned just as they have for countless islands before. Dad thought, "hell lets give it a shot, these folks don't get along with anyone".
They anchored offshore and took a small boat to land. They expected villagers to show up but no one did. They hung out for the day and walked the beach. It started to get dark and no one had showed up. My uncle decided to build a big bonfire on the beach to let the islanders know they were there.
Dad decides to walk through the forest looking for a trail. Just as the sunset dad found a well used trail. It was just about dark and he need to get back to the boat. He figured next morning we can follow this into the village.
He trotted back towards the beach where my Uncle was building a big fire to try and signal the natives. They sat there awhile then returned to the boat.
When they reached the boat they looked back and saw the bonfire still going strong. But people were running back and forth dancing next to it.
Dad thought, "great, tomorrow we can meet them, they found the fire and us".
Next morning they headed to shore and 200 dudes with bows and arrows came out of the bush and started firing. He realized then that these natives still have an attitude.
They ran the dingy down the beech and dropped off a friend with a telephoto lens, and headed back towards the war party. The natives then saw my dad friend and suddenly all these natives were running down the beach to him.
They swung the boat around picked him up as arrows splashed around and decided North Sentinel Island is still a worry for ship wrecked mariners.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 30, 2011 - 12:26am PT
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Men who have made an incredible impact on the World and continue to do so. Men I would like to (or would have liked to) have the opportunity to sit down with or take a long walk and talk at great length and ask very specific questions I have . . .
Jesus Christ
Copernicus
Kepler
Galileo
Isaac Newton
Thomas Edison
The Wright Brothers
Einstein
John Muir
John Lennon
Jacques Cousteau
David Brower
Bradford Washburn
Galen Rowell
Neil Armstrong
Dean Kamen
too name a few . . .
Edit:
My list is made from my personal interests and preference.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 30, 2011 - 12:34am PT
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The Wright Bros., John Lennon, Cousteau, Brower...
All great men in their way, but them over Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Churchill, please.
Do you think for a minute that modern airplanes would be different in any way if the Wright Bros had never been born?
The history of the world would be different without the presence of Lincoln and Churchill. Not for the better.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jul 30, 2011 - 12:36am PT
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Alexander Hamilton
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Jul 30, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 30, 2011 - 02:42am PT
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Rokjox,
I have to disagree with you.
The History of Flight
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/wb-timeline.html
Dumont and other French aviators realized they were beat hands down when the Wright Brothers got to France and flew their Wright Flyer for the French at big fairground demonstrations. The Wright Flyer had far more control and could go high and stay aloft for a great amount of time. Dumont couldn't do this. The Wright Flyer could literally fly circles around Dumont's aircraft. Even the French newspapers of the day admitted it, "We are Beaten."
The Wright Brothers may not have been educated and were without a college degree, but they used the engineering method and inventing correctly, which is the scientific method being utilized via applied science rather than pure science.
The Wright Brothers accomplished many firsts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers
First wind tunnel for experiments with scaled models and determining proper lift tables, correcting the erroneous lift tables produced by Octave Chanute. The engineering/scientific method at work.
From the observation of birds in flight the longitudinal twisting of the wing rather than aerilons for turning was worked out (wing warping). This is somewhat similar in a way to the modern paraglider. A modern paraglider achieves some of the turning ability this way.
Edit: they were the first to control the 3 primary axis of flight, which are Pitch, Yaw, and Roll.
They were the first to invent and workout real modern gliding and soaring. They were very accomplished free-flight pilots long before they ever added a motor. All free-flight pilots know this. They were really flying long before they added the motor, long before anyone else was. The credit for a controlled gliding flight may really go to John Montgomery (JM's flights were done here in San Diego) and Otto Lilienthal in Germany, but no one did it better and longer than The Wright Brothers. They logged hours of controlled gliding time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Joseph_Montgomery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Lilienthal
Octave Chanute nearly got them talked into coming out to the cliffs of Torrey Pines here in San Diego to perform their experiments of flight. Good thing they didn't listen to Chanute's advice. They would have killed themselves. They went to Kitty Hawk and the Kill Devil Hills instead. Good call.
They were the first to achieve controlled powered flight. Doesn't matter how low or high you get it off the ground. Controlled powered flight is the same a few feet off the ground or really high. The physics of flight are the same. They quickly improved The Wright Flyer #1 and were flying high and with control long before Dumont did his thing in France.
To say that The Wright Brothers weren't educated, and had no formal college training nor college degrees is to really miss the boat. Many brilliant people are self-taught and have learned and abide by the scientific/engineering method and accomplish fantastic things that have changed the world. Many have done this. Countless examples. The Wright Brothers did this. You should read the books and watch some of the better DVDs done on the Wright brothers and you will learn how brilliant they were.
I have this DVD, its really good. Shown it many times to my physics students when I get into the physics of flight.
The American Experience: The Wright Stuff
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/wright/
Program transcript:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/wright/transcript.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/wright/
From the film:
JOSEPH CORN: It must have been really frustrating for the Wrights. They had invented a real flying machine. They had solved all the thorny technical problems. They had done serious empirical and scientific research, built their machine, flown it, and yet the headlines were just filled with praise for these Europeans.
NARRATOR: Finally, after three years of negotiations, the Wrights' claims reached President Theodore Roosevelt. Early in 1908, a deal was made with the U.S. Army Signal Corps for twenty-five thousand dollars. Another deal with a French syndicate soon followed. Having built a second flyer, the brothers set out to prove that their machines could fly. Wilbur left for France, while Orville prepared for demonstrations in Washington.
TOM CROUCH: It was the first time in a long time that they'd been separated on an important occasion, and they did feel the strain. And the strains were real. I mean, Wilbur was under a lot of pressure.
NARRATOR: Orv,
You can scarcely imagine what a strain it is on one to have no one to understand what you say, and no one capable of doing the grade of work we've always insisted upon. It compels me to do almost everything myself, and keeps me worried.
ROBERT WOHL: Wilbur Wright was not a man who would allow himself to be rushed. He had painstakingly assembled the flyer. He took it to a small racetrack outside of the French town of Le Mans. A crowd had assembled on August 8, 1908. They waited and they waited and they waited in their starchy clothes. And finally, Wilbur Wright appeared, dressed appropriately in a business suit and a strange hat, green hat. He sat down in the flyer, whistling a tune that nobody could identify between his_ his teeth and his tightly-pursed lips. And he suddenly said, ''Gentlemen, I am going to fly.'' A weight was dropped, and the Wright flyer left the ground. At that moment, the sixty-some-odd spectators rose to their feet in a spontaneous acclamation.
NARRATOR: Wilbur's version of the day's events was slightly more understated. ''I thought it would be good to do a little something,'' he wrote to Orville.
ROBERT WOHL: There was not one person who was present at that flight on the 8th of August of 1908 who did not realize that the Wright brothers had done everything that they said they had done, and that they were now far beyond the French. And, in fact, one of them said at that time and was quoted in the papers widely, ''We are beaten.''
NARRATOR: Overnight, Wilbur became a sensation in France.
Katharine,
I am in receipt of bouquets, baskets of fruit, flowers almost without number. The furor has been so great I cannot even take a bath without having a hundred or two people peeking at me.
The 'Vilbur Reet' cap appeared in stores throughout Paris. One year after he was awed by the Louvre, it was reported that his frying pan would be put on display there.
ROBERT WOHL: The French felt it necessary to somehow ''jazz up'' Wilbur's character_ for example, when they place him with a cigarette in his mouth next to a garish-looking woman, this a man who was seldom seen in the company of women other than his sister and who never smoked in his life.
NARRATOR: Wilbur wasn't the only brother caught in the limelight.
Katharine,
I haven't done a lick of work since I've been here. I have to give my time to answering the ten thousand fool questions people ask about the machine.
Orv.
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Jul 30, 2011 - 08:26am PT
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Concerning the Wright Brothers, there use of a catapult seemed to be a good idea as they are used on aircraft carriers 100 years later.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jul 30, 2011 - 10:30am PT
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Sir Richard Burton
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 30, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
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John the Baptist
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Jul 30, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
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T. E. Lawrence, a.k.a. Lawrence of Arabia.
Abe Lincoln
Tesla
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
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Lawrence was a little TOO interesting.
That is why he pretended to be someone else, attempting to re-enlist under the name Shaw (an homage to his friend George Bernard).
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2011 - 01:35am PT
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Anyone ever think of a live individual to be the most interesting man in the world? Just wondering on people that mean a lot to you, not historical sh#t (keep it at least within 100 years).
I love all the great thinkers but give it some thought. I hope you have a dude or dudette that can teach the world to anyone!
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Rocky5000
Trad climber
Falls Church, VA
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Geoff Farrar, AKA "Carderock Jeff"
Either him or Thucydides.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Rokjox,
Yes, I know the history of first controlled powered flight is controversial and many egos are involved.
But when you really look at the known and documented history the credit goes to the Wright Brothers. Like I said they were free-flight pilots first before they solved controlled powered flight. Their first design was obviously not their best design.
There can only be one first and they are it, for controlled powered flight. Even now The Smithsonian Institute acknowledges this fact.
Yes, they wanted to protect their invention of flight and to guard their credit for doing so first. Just look at all the others who are claiming to be first. Look at the history of flight and The Smithsonian Institute. Talk about professional jealousy. And they wanted to get the financial rewards for doing so. Who doesn't want the financial rewards when they are first and successful for doing so? You can do it for pure science and many do. They did. They were very interested in the science. But you still have to put food on the table for your family. If you are the first, you still want the financial rewards. That is only natural. They took it from pure science to applied science. Hence, they wanted to sell the technology to the military and eventually did. They eventaully got the patents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers
I've quoted this many times . . .
"Contrary to their public image, scientists are normal, flawed human beings."13 They are as capable of prejudice, covetousness, pride, deceitfulness, etc., as anyone.” David Weatherall, "Conduct Unbecoming," American Scientist (vol. 93, January-February 2005), p. 73
They did so much more than being launched like a giant lawn dart the first few days at Kitty Hawk. If you don't understand this then you're missing the point.
THE FIVE FIRST FLIGHTS
The Slope and Winds of Big Kill Devil Hill - The First Flight Reconsidered
http://www.thewrightbrothers.org/fivefirstflights.html
Edit:
Also these flights were not-catapult flights. They had rails and the Wright Flyer sat on a sled that glided on the rails. This was mounted on the very slight incline of the massive semi-permanent sand dune, called "Kill Devil Hill." So think of it as having detachable wheels and the tarmac was the rails. Even today some airport runways have a slight downhill incline to them. Mammoth/Yosemite Airport comes to mind. It isn't level. It runs down hill.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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