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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 24, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
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I am sorry Lolli and Reilly. But he didn't apologize for his racist comment and for jumping to conclusions. Conclusions meant to incite hatred for Islam. After all Jeff has written about Islam, that small statement isn't enough. If it had been an Islamic extremist, then he would have gloated for weeks and months and done nothing but blame Islam for destroying this world. Yet when it turns out to be someone with right wing ideologies, does he blame right wing ideology? No.. he calls him a whacko.
He is quick to blame Islam for whackos who say they follow it, but he does not blame the right wing for the whackos who profess that philosophy. It is a double standard and it is wrong.
Plus he doesn't say he is sorry for saying what he said. Just that he is wrong. He most definitely would have gloated if he had turned out to be correct. Then gone on to blame Islam for the worlds current troubles.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 24, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
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Prime Minister Stoltenberg: "I have a message to the person who attacked us and the people who are behind it: You're not going to destroy us. You're not destroying our democracy and our work for a better world. We're a small country but a very proud country. No one can bomb us to be quiet. No one can shoot us to be quiet. No one can ever scare us from being Norway."
Said Friday, before there was much information on the attacks or their cause.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
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Hey everyone,
Dang it, we need to stop the cycle. When someone says they are wrong, that should be good enough. When it isn't... Well, what do you want us to do... "Hate?" I don't think promoting hate is ever good. We all do massive stupid stuff. We need to get over it in order to get to the good stuff.
I'll save my hate for this killer of the children. He has earned it...
Anastasia
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Jul 24, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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Fatty - at least you had the balls to chime back in and admit it. Some don't.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 24, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
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Here here.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 24, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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Thats it? He doesn't apologize and you accept what he says? Mercy.. no wonder this world is messed up. No accountability for ones actions. He is the one preaching hate of Muslims and Islam. Just look at his clash of civilizations threads. Multiple thread after thread. I don't hate Jeff. I want him held accountable for his actions. Admitting he was wrong is a start, but after all that he has said about Islam, admitting he made a mistake is not nearly enough. He needs to apologize for being quick to judge.
He will go on to preach hate towards Muslims because people turn a blind eye, and then there really will be a clash of civilizations. Thats what he and his friends want.
Have at it then, but you are making a mistake if you accept that piddly answer from him.
Are you now going to say I am preaching hate against you for making a mistake?
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
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John, Seriously... He said he was wrong! It might not be in the words you specifically wanted but it's an apology. Why do you so badly need him to be beaten down? It's scaring me.
Riley, I've met the guy in person. He is the first person here to donate to any of our causes. Plus, if I am ever broken down on the road. I hope it's Fatty that drives by because... I know he would stop and help get me back on the road. From your words, you don't know him. You are like the shooter, spewing hate for the love of it.
It's wrong damn it.
Anastasia
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 24, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
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I can just imagine what this thread would be like if the perp were a bearded, swarthy Muslim instead of a blond with "chisled features."
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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Yes Donini,
Plus we will be attacking each even more... We are such a fine bunch.
AFS
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 24, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
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John, Seriously... He said he was wrong! It might not be in the words you specifically wanted but it's an apology. Why do you so badly need him to be beaten down? It's scaring me.
I'm sorry that you are frightened Anastasia. Perhaps you should read Jeff's clash of civilizations threads. Then you might be frightened of the wolf in sheeps clothing. Its easy to be friendly to people you like. Jeff says Dick Cheney is a "nice" guy. He gives to charity. Et cetera Et cetera. Should we then accept that Dick Cheney is a "nice" guy? I'm sorry, but Jeff can do all sorts of nice things, but his real heart is revealed on his Clash of civilizations threads.
But lets all just look away because that is too hard. Its hard to call someone out for the blackness in their hearts. Its much easier to let bygones be bygones while they continue to foster hatred of an entire society. Hatred of blacks didn't just go away. It just got smart and went underground. Ask any black person. The same is true of Muslims. Jeff preaches fear. Read his threads.
I'm not suggesting we banish Jeff. I'm suggesting that you look deeper and don't just accept his first answer.
You are a trusting and friendly person Anastasia, and you want to believe the best of everyone. I want to believe that also, but I am too aware of where evil lurks. I'm not saying that Jeff is evil. But I am saying that how he attacks the Muslim faith is wrong.
He owes more then a simple.. "I made a mistake".
I'm not asking you to stop being friendly. I'm asking you to be more discerning.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 24, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
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Sure Skip. I admit my apology was weak. I am still angry with you for making fun of me for losing my house. That was a very painful experience and to have you make fun of me for being sick and trying to do what I thought was right, was no fun. So just to be clear. I did not accept your apology for making fun of me. There was no heart in it.
Now we are on even footing. Would you like to continue?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 24, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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There is no explaining this. A terrible tragedy. Horrible. I can't imagine how the families feel.
But who knows? After all, this is where the word "berserk" comes from.
I am glad Lolli and Anders have brought us up to speed on Norwegian law.
I am against capitol punishment as well (sends the wrong message, doesn't effectively deter, administered unequally, and gives an easy exit for the offender), and am glad Norway eschews it, but this miscreant phsycho needs to be locked away for good.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Jul 24, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
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Must be. Farmacy closed till business picks up.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 24, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
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I want to thank Lolli and Mighty Hiker, two of our resident Scandinavians for their clear, heartfelt and deeply moral posts. And I thank fattrad for his apology.
It always best to recognize our anger and then use our humanity and respect for the law to demand justice.
As Piton Ron said: capital punishment is not only immoral to many of us, it is outlawed in all but a very few industrialized nations. Most dramatically, the US, Japan, Singapore and China.
It's been shown conclusively by many studies that capital punishment is not a deterrent. Don't you think this monster (who is almost certainly sane by legal definition) would rather be executed and become a martyr? Norway will likely rethink their maximum detention laws, since there will always be a small number of incurable sociopaths who need to be locked away for the rest of their lives.
As of right now, 93 dead, 98 injured, an unstated number still missing.
dumb sucker is ok, but I do take offense to be called liberal
I am not that far to the right Something to make me laugh out of all the nonsense.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 24, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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That so, Skip?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 24, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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It is natural to be angered by events such as those on Friday. They pass human understanding, and flout our sense of justice, fairness and decency. It is also natural to be angered by some of the posts here. Even if no one you know was directly affected, you want to respond. It's easy for such a response to be negative, or at least unconstructive.
I was out on Friday evening, and when I got home heard that over 90 were dead, and something about how it had happened. I'd planned to climb on Saturday, but was in no state to do so. Instead, I spent the day working off some energy and anger, on a graffiti-removal project at Squamish. Hard, dirty work, hanging on a rope. Something I've meant to do for a while. I had to carry about 30 litres of water, plus climbing gear, plus the Removall and stuff. 80 - 90% of the paint is gone, and after a second pass, 98+% will be. It will still be possible to see where it was - the solvents in the paint kill the underlying lichen, and so for a while there will be white instead of giant red letters. But I'll feather the edges, and try some other things to help it blend in. (Anyone know how to grow lichens, reasonably quickly?)
There's little I can do for the dead, or for Norway. (I'm a Canadian of Norwegian descent, but have spent time there at school, teaching climbing, climbing, visiting relatives, etc.) But I wanted to do something that was at least a little positive.
I'm afraid that I agree with Lolli - it doesn't seem that skipt has much to contribute here, if anything.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
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Anders and Lolli,
I admire your responses and how you are both sensitive and productive about this tragedy. We all should be mourning this loss and exist beyond the pettiness of others. Me, myself and I am still too immature to pull that off, but heck, I'm trying.
We should be focusing on how to help Norway. I have no idea how, maybe we should send a joint letter of condolences to one of the climbing clubs, etc? I don't know... All I know is that Norway is a tight community and this must be extremely painful for all of them.
Anastasia
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 24, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
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Prime Minister Stoltenberg, at a service in Oslo cathedral today (translated):
“You should know that we’re crying with you. We feel for you… I am proud of living in a country that has managed to stand up on its feet in such a critical time… We are still horrified over what happened. But we will never give up our values.”
Mr. Stoltenberg repeated his call to defy the terrorist’s anti-immigration and anti-multiculturalism rage by reinforcing those very values: “Our answer is more democracy, more openness, and more humanity - - but never naivety,” he told the congregation.
We are going to show up as the Norway you know,” said foreign minister Jonas Gahr Støre. “We are not going to close off our streets, we are not going to lock up our kids, we are going to stick to our democratic values."
"Police and politicians vowed to investigate a movement whose supporters range from authors of popular books on “Eurabia” and “the Muslim tide” to more violent figures like Mr. Brievik who also appear to have ties to little-known extreme-right groups. At the same time, officials vowed not to let this investigation interfere with Norway’s legendary openness."
There were two more police raids in Oslo today, but no word on arrests. The police are also investigating links with racist groups elsewhere in Europe.
Breivik apparently agrees that he did what he did, but denies criminal responsibility. He will be formally charged on Monday. It sounds like he wants a platform from which to further promote his evil, but that shouldn't get far in a well-managed trial.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/a-nation-in-mourning-defies-gunman-special-bullets-used-in-shooting-spree/article2107826/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 24, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
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There will be a national minute of silence in Norway at noon on Monday July 25th, in memory of the dead. The king and prime minister will attend, and a book of condolences will be placed at the University of Oslo. Sweden will also participate in the moment of silence.
There will also be an official online condolence site - will post details when I find them.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4182655.ece
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 24, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
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Likely not dum dums (see my thread on the .303).
My guess; Glaser safety slugs.
Bullets filled with suspended shot that dumps its energy quickly causing remarkable tissue disruption.
To say that even the military doesn't use them is disingenuous.
The new unleaded "green" round that the military is moving to does a similar dump with likewise efficacy.
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