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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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May 21, 2007 - 08:47pm PT
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Hi John,
I think he said you gave it to him when he was down in Utah doing some training with Exum. It's an A5 hammer, beyond that I have no idea. Anibal is living in Toronto now and has even taken to ice climbing.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 21, 2007 - 09:11pm PT
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My comments are mostly intended to relate to hammer pick use as people seem to be wanting to design the pick for heading more than for removing pitons. The blunt pick on the standard Yo hammer was designed specifically to allow the piton shoulder to be struck while cleaning to save wear and tear on the less robust eye area. With less piton use in general and fewer overdriven pitons specifically, the blunt configuration has become less necessary.
Too much thinning or stretching toward a Crag hammer shape, however, makes the pick useless for piton removal. John's design struck a good compromise by easing the pick end vertically and introducing more droop to enhance its prying performance. The eased pick shape definitely offers a narrower and hence better surface for contacting copperheads than a Yo hammer. The A5 hammer also retained the full head weight necessary for efficient drilling and driving of thin blades. The drilled Yo hammer lost some head weight so I never considered getting one.
I don't use the clip-in hole personally but I'm sure lots of folks would be lost without it. A cable funkness device is the best way to trash a hammer that you could come up with if you think about the forces involved. I prefer a girth hitched runner for cleaning and testing with my hand supporting the head itself. Does everybody want a new hammer because the head's off the old one?
I hope this input is somewhat useful. A treatise on heading will have to wait for another thread. Simple but involved...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 21, 2007 - 10:48pm PT
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Hi Ben-
Are you saying Anibal left Cuba??? Or does he have a permit to come and go? When I was in Cuba we stayed at his Mom's place in Havana. The stories she told were amazing, her life is one that a book/play/musical could be written about.
Hey Steve, thanks for the comments. It takes a true connoisseur to really understand the nuances of what makes a good hammer, it seems.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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May 22, 2007 - 03:10am PT
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OK........Steve, thanks for your valuable input.
You answered the half of the question about design. What about the other half of the question: technique? Come on, spill the beans on your "better way" of heading.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2007 - 03:30am PT
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I agree, out with it. I looked back at Klaus' brief comment which appeared to have good things to say about the McDevitt pick shape. And in general with this discussion of pin removal I wonder just what is the likely ratio of hammer use these days relative to heading vs pin removal? People are still using pins, but at least where we are they're all being fixed - not placed and removed. Seems to me the head weight for drilling is a no-brainer. So what do folks think the priorites should be? Drilling weight, pin removal, heading? The advocates of both designs seem to be advocating best of all worlds.
Again, we may very well just go with the existing mold, think of this as giving folks an opportunity wade in with other preferences and ideas. Maybe the two prototypes should spend some time with John and Steve at the very least, though I'd like to think we could talk Klaus into taking a look as well.
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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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May 22, 2007 - 10:30am PT
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John,
Anibal married and has been living in Toronto, working at MEC, for a year and a half. He still makes it down to Cuba each winter to visit Vinales and his family. His mother's house was fully booked while I was down so I only met her briefly. The warmth and resourcefullness of the Cuban people is unmatched in my opinion. We encountered kids on the trail who had climbing shoes but walked everywhere else barefoot. Anyways, sorry for the hijack everyone.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 22, 2007 - 11:44am PT
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I think Occam's Razor is going to lead you right back to the A5 head shape and weight for a wall hammer. To further narrow the pick toward the McDevitt shape doesn't really gain any utility. Placing heads and cleaning wires are still best accomplished with the appropriate tools. Striking the piton shoulder with a much reduced pick is going to promote wear and tear. The A5 nose is about perfect really. Head weight and handle are the crucial criteria.
The hammer handle should be short, straight and made of wood. The hammer needs to be compact to allow easy use and overhead drilling. A straight handle turns easily in the hand while alternating between pick and striking end. This is not about generating wallop framing hammer style. For feel and vibration dampening (both critical) wood is the only choice with hickory the first choice and ash the second.
Completely forget about a synthetic handle like the BD blue plastic Inspector Gadget Transformer Hammer not quite shown earlier in the thread. Interchangeable picks seems like a great idea if you are machining already but ask yourself honestly if carrying spare picks to change is realistic or necessary for a wall hammer. Lastly, the time honored bent tang head attachment method protects the crucial area below the head and doesn't work loose. No design improvement is necessary here IMO.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2007 - 01:47pm PT
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Steve, good comments. I would say that there appear to be more than a few folks who would disagree with your comments on pick shape relative to heading which is why most of this exploration has been taking place. There were also a bunch of comments on not rounding the corners off quite so much on the hammer head. Those have been the two principal comments to-date. As for the handle, we're working with the same company to locate the same handle used on the A5, though there are folks who've expressed a desire for a bit more length. Sounds in general like you operate with a preference for precision over power.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 22, 2007 - 03:22pm PT
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Joe, at some point you might want to consider an executive decision based on your gut instinct. That's what art is, after all. Not sure where you are getting the funds, but it is quite an investment, so I understand your caution.
Anyway, of course if you ask me (as you have), I will always say: forged hammer head (NOT cast, and NOT machined), straight hickory handle (not too long), tangs, etc. The design I have produced is "my opinion", in other words.
You'll also want to make sure the head is balanced properly, something which often is neglected with the sudden onslew of big wall hammer designers.
I made a wood model of the A5 design prior to crafting the blueprint to calculate the balance point.
You go guy.
"A camel is a horse designed by committee"
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 22, 2007 - 03:24pm PT
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ps. Ben, thanks for the update on Anibal. Please give him my best if you get in touch with him.
cheers
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 22, 2007 - 11:40pm PT
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an old A5 hammer just sold for $160 on ebay. I was willing to go up to 150...oh well. I bet one of you guys got it...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 23, 2007 - 12:18am PT
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It wasn't me bro but here is a side by side. My original Yo hammer from 1970 and the A5.
The A5 has a heavier head and more updated design (better for drilling)but if I was cleaning pins all the day long the Yo would be my choice based on feel and balance. Both are outstanding options for distinct reasons.
And for dessert, 68 Chouinard catalog hammer description and treatise on piton use. This is the shizzle on nailing straight from the folks crafting the iron.
It is worth noting that Chouinard Equipment opened its doors in 1957 and didn't produce a hammer until 1966.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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May 23, 2007 - 12:36am PT
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very cool Steve, thx.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2007 - 12:40am PT
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Steve thanks, and Lambone - sorry, it was me. It was getting silly trying to build one of them when I've never actually held one.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 24, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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damn, do you even climb walls? It's a shame if you don't. sell it to me when you are done...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2007 - 10:35pm PT
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Lambone, haven't done one yet. Still trying to work out getting one in...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2007 - 10:58pm PT
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John,
So, courtesy of Eric Malone and ebay I finally have an A5 hammer in my hands today (love the feel of it). And by co-incidence I also talked with Lewis McNeal of Seymour Link Handle. Theron sent Bryan's A5 hammer to Lewis who now thinks he's got a handle that will work and is going to ship a couple to Theron.
But, he was observing Bryan's hammer and noted the metal wedges had split the hammer and and Bryan had also run a nail into it. He also noted those splits propogated below the hanldle and wondered if we wanted him to pre-notch the handles for a wedge to control the splitting. Looking at Eric's hammer which just arrived I see the same deal on his (see pics).
So I'm guessing they all pretty much do this and that it's not a big deal or interfere with the hammer all that much. I also noted the McDevitt hammer (I believe) has a transverse hole drilled through the head and wedge with rolled brass(?) to secure the wedge. In general I didn't want to give Lewis an answer before getting your opinion and anyone else's who has one.
Also, now that I do have an A5 in my hand I'm not sure how the pick could get any skinnier without making it longer or a different design. And as for the rounded corners on the face of the hammer, I can see the top corners a touch more rounded than the bottom ones, but they don't seem excessively so and in fact maybe this was done in finishing versus the mold? Unless folks are speaking of the fact that the face is more like slight opposing trapezoids than a square. Curious which is the source of the complaints vis-a-vis the McDevitt - the rounded actual top corners, or the shape of the face not being a perfect square?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2007 - 05:48am PT
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Got an out-of-office reply from John saying he's gone for most of June so we'll probably just plow on...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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LOL, I've actually used that alpine hammer on a climb, just a couple of years ago, climbing with Stegg. It's good for cleaning dirt and crap out of cracks.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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I always liked the Forrest Wall Whammer.... liked the extra handle length and the head was a good shape. Anyone got one???? we're talking cash money......
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