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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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May 18, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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Jesse, if you READ THE THREAD, you will see that campground campfires have been brought up by others (not jake or you).
"Haven't been to the Valley in a good while, but I was always amazed that they allowed all those fires in the campgrounds in the middle of summer, the smoke trapped under the canopy and the whole place a disgusting smokey mess. Always hoped they'd put an end to the needless fires."
"Stop vending wood. Remove the fire rings and maybe leave one or two community rings per campground. Ban fires in the CGs June-Sept. That would make a hell of a lot more difference than focusing on the three idiots a year who are dumb enough to have a fire at the base."
"Smokey fires in the valley floor are a health hazard and should be ticketed. If you can't keep your fire clean burning, put it out. The air in the valley after about 6 PM is the worst air I've dealt with just about anywhere."
"it would be nice if people could change their thoughts on the whole ambiance campfire thing. it seems slightly archaic. destroying air and trees for entertainment only does not make so much sense. nor does a raging fire so that you can hang out in shorts and a tee shirt."
"I also agree that curbing the fires in the campgrounds would be AT LEAST as important."
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
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BMD,
You're right, my bad, I just wanted to steer the conversation back to climbing/El Cap related firerings. Thanks for keeping me on point!
Jesse
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 18, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
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Thus far, the climbing rangers have done a good job protecting climbers from blanket closures, more restrictive rules, and foolishness from higher park authorities who would just as soon ban all fires on top of El Cap.
It's not easy to be caught between two constituencies, NPS management and climbers.
They've also been good at communicating and being open to dialog, even as some folks reactively rail on them.
Let's engage in the kind of dialog that keeps things from getting out of control such that harsh regulations aren't required, and that work out issues that need to be considered for the sake of climbers needs and the environment.
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 18, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
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Jesse wrote: I still don't understand why some people on the forum get so upset at us for trying to protect climbing areas and wilderness.
I don't think that protecting wilderness upsets anyone. The choice of which things are going to be protected over others and the methods for enforcing the protection aren't always to everyone's liking.
FWIW, I think opening this discussion by joking about firearms and ticket books set an awkward tone. (And, generally, I find that the whole rangers vs. climbers thing is pretty trite.)
Hiring Tami sounds like a great use of my tax dollars. A cartoon showing a big stupid climber effing up will motivate and inform a much broader Nature-loving audience than the threat of law.
Get climbers involved in your ring cleanups. This might help a whole group of people who haven't even been to the summit of El Cap yet learn where they can bivy with the lowest impact when they do climb there. If you're exhausted, it's dark, and it's your first time on top, you might not realize the abundance of Machu Pichus that are actually w/in stumbling distance of almost any top out. Most of us are trying to do right by Nature.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 18, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
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Pointing out another dumb position doesn't elevate one's own chosen position.
Here's my dumb position:
 The notion of needing a fire for survival in Yosemite is almost ludicrous. But I have seriously considered building a signal fire for a rescue.
Maybe fires are good to provide pleasure to the hands or butt on an uncomfortable night, and the whole entertainment thing
I don't see many cases where it will save someone from hypothermia better than spooning with their partner inside of whatever items are available (space blanket, haulsack, jacket, sleeping bag, rope, pine needles, etc.)
Conditions where a fire might really be bordering on survival I think would be wet/cold/frozen when people had no gear, and then they probably couldn't make a fire and if they could, it would not be a real forest fire threat
I'm not against the concept of fires, but I see no problem with respecting a rule against them in a high impact place. If folks want to stop campfires at car campgrounds, that's a separate issue. I would sign a petition to modify campfire rules in campgrounds. It's hard to breathe walking anywhere near them.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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May 18, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
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To stay on topic, and to keep this important item on the front page.
Needing a fire on the top of EC for survival, not likely, not impossible, but so unlikely that there is no reason to have rings abound on the summit. There just have not been that many in dire need of it.
The rangers posting are doing their job, and mediating an issue that could have wide and vast consequences to someone someday. This will affect us all, should a few choose to ignore reality and continue vain practices.
I have never needed a fire to save me, and I do get out in extremes a lot. A whole lot. With modern clothing, fire would not save me, but probably create a danger that isn't already present. If it is warm enough to heat my core, or worst case my extrmities, chances are I am melting one of the many modern fabrics, making the situation worse, not better.
If you do a route in a day, and are too pooped to pop your bu tt to the base, you should have either hauled enough equipment to take care of yourself, or had a friend help out by meeting you at the top with the necessary goodies. Climbing a wall, slow or fast is about logistics and planning, if you create a hazard by cutting the corners and trimming the fat, you are at fault. A fire is not going to change your poor planning.
ElCap, and all Yosemite walls are wilderness, and very valuable to many of us who travel great distance, and at no small expense. Treating them and the surrounding area with disrespect is a disservice to the rest of the climbing community, and is just selfish.
It looked to me like Jesse and partner are just trying to help, not cut into anyones god given right to do as they please. Perspective seems very skewed by a few individuals.
Mark H, and a few others have attempted to raise our standards, such a hauling our liquid waste, and that wasn't met with as much disdaing and disrespect as an issue such as this. A fire is just an outdoor version of TV. No real practical use.
Burly Bob
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 18, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
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Better yet, run a power cord up East Ledges and put multi-use outlets with space heaters and electric razors to clean up before summit pics.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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xtrmcat--well said brother.
Can we hire you too? We'll have you as our dialogue communicator and Tami as our visual communicator.
By the way, this sounds exactly like what John Dill was saying to me about the subject earlier today. Fires for emergency purposes shouldn't be necessary if the climber is really prepared to be there in the first place. I don't think fires are not part of his Staying Alive message.
Are you really John Dill's alias?
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Sequoia Ntl. Pk.
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May 18, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
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seems to me that the few fires that are built on top and bottom of el cap are further down the priority list of things that need to be addressed. Like Werner said some employes building the rare fire at the base are not going to catch the valley on fire.
And fires on top? Really? There are no better projects to spend our time on than some fire rings up there?
How about some type of trail maintenance? Maybe if there was a more clearly marked trail going up to the WFLT, ND gulley, or the column the new climbers would not get lost and make all kinds of new sucker trails.
How about some type of outreach program for the Euro climbers who come here? Not the normal info the tourists get. Seems like there are still a lot of them hucking their poop bags off el cap (almost got hit by one the other day)
Or maybe we could do some type of education on hucking water bottles off el cap, along with some planned cleanups of the base other than the face lift.. I picked up two and a half bags of trash at the base already this year!
In July the roads are like parking lots, pollution under the canopy of trees is insane! I guess that is another can of worms altogether though.
Just trying to come up with some other ideas though.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 19, 2011 - 10:32am PT
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Or better yet, Lovegasoline, just quarry the Valley down to monolithic surfaces and thereby get another two thousand feet to El Cap, for instance. No more bear problem too, at least for awhile.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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May 19, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Anyone who thinks that fire can't save your a**, simply hasn't been in the right wet hypo/frost situation....yet.
There are no perfect fabrics. Climbers are always striving for lighter lighter lighter.
If you are dehydrated enough, calorie deprived enough, exhausted enough, meaning your body has little ability to generate core heat, no thin pile and gortex in the world can save you. Sounds like a wall climber at the end of an epic to me.....Sheesh guys.
I will carry bombproof fire starters with me in the mountains forever.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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May 19, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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and easily undertaken enchainments BWA HA HA hahahaa!!
Wow, that's a helluva post!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 19, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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I blame the glaciers. If it weren't for their "terminal moraines" (aka big time litter), there'd be 500+ m more rock exposed. (It's all in a book by a ranger.) Probably 50% more rock area overall. Surely the NPS resource management people could do something about this? Blowing a hole in the El Cap moraine years ago, to reduce wetness in the upper Valley, was a promising but very small start.
As for the invasive species - well, it's pretty clear that it wasn't just poison oak.
(I wonder how many of those who climb to the top of El Cap are prepared to make a bad weather fire, especially if there was much snow?)
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maui_mark
climber
under a coconut tree
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May 19, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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MTucker... aren't you the same pimpled face f*#ktard baggin on Ammon for BASE jumping? And then also trying to rip off climbers by selling used sh#t on ebay?
And you want to preach to us about the law and whats legal in the NPS? Why don't you go do yourself a favor and research a heli rescue alittle more and suck a bag of dicks at the same time..
Now this is funny: The other point we really want to emphasize: don't construct a new ring. Jake exaggerated slightly with his estimate of 10.3 billion rings on top of El Cap...he just moved the decimal too far forward… it is actually more like 1.3 million. A more reasonable number, and something we can all live with.
Really?? you've counted them? by spending countless man hours walking El Cap in a grid pattern and littering number cards from 1 to 1.3 million to make sure??
Or are you using a satellite from the military to spot those "dangerous campfires" and go in special forces style in a search and destroy mission like the SEALS??
EXCELLENT use of the US tax payers dollars. I can't think of a more productive use of federal funds. Next year you should count the number of footprints hikers make hiking to Half Dome and then spend 4 weeks in the off season with rakes cleaning up their footprints from the summit to Curry Village. I think the number of footprints would be more like 690 Billion which is a number we can all live with.
Take the same special ops team on this one and the 10 of you with rakes should be able to wipe that trail clean easily in 4 weeks and 6 million dollars of federal taxpayer money.
WTF over
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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May 20, 2011 - 12:07am PT
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I've had fires & I've cold camped. NBD.
It's a good point that if you're hangin' around that area, You should probably have the stuff you need already...to survive with. Otherwise, well, Yer Gonna DIE!!!8!!
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hollyclimber
Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
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May 31, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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I think most people understand/agree that there is no reason for a fire at the BASE of El Cap. Most people don't read most of the thread before they post (or even most of the OP). So, people are a little defensive of their ability to make a fire ON TOP.
I was very disappointed to see a local resident with a fire at the base of the Nose on May 14th at 6:30 am. Actually, not even at the BASE of the Nose, actually in the middle of the trail, barely out of the woods. Four guys sleeping under a tarp, fire still going from the nights partying, beer bottles everywhere. I told him what he was doing was not cool and that he is making it hard on other climbers. Then, I actually recognized the guy and really told him how disappointed I was that someone who lives here (or perhaps his current status is "has lived here") would be disrespectful enough to make a fire in the middle of the trail, not to mention ob camping in a way that is dumber than dumb. These folks were so close to the first open clearing that it was guaranteed that everyone hiking to anywhere on El Cap that day, including tourists, were going to see their example.
I have had a few fires on top, including waiting for a "in a day" party that did not make it, and I had inadequate gear to keep waiting for them without the fire and was a little worried about the situation. I actually disagree that it is legal to have a fire on top of El Cap, after researching this a lot among various LEO in the Valley. Fires are legal in wilderness in "established" fire rings.
If I summit a climb and make a fire ring and have a fire, illegal. If someone summits behind me and makes a fire in my illegally created fire ring, I believe this is also "illegal". In my interpretation, and many other LEO's, an illegally created ring does not qualify as an "established" ring. But, cool that you aren't planning on busting summit fires, as I think that would be a bitter battle.
So, I hope we can all unite against base fires. There is NO NEED for a fire at the base of El Cap, it is not cool and we don't want that kind of negative attention being brought on the climbers. And, if you are still reading (of course most of you are not) please do not leave your food unattended either. And this includes jugging your fixed lines and leaving your bag on the ground that you plan to haul without someone watching it. Have seen bears attack bags in this manner personally twice, and have reports and photos from other similar incidents. No unattended food means no unattended food. If I have lines fixed and therefore hauling requires leaving the bag unattended while both my partner and I jug the first pitch on the haul line, I bring a friend to stay on the ground with the food until I can start the haul.
During the week of May 9th when I was prepping for an El Cap climb, I was at the base of El Cap almost every day. And every day I was there I witnessed multiple obvious food storage violations with all sorts of packs and haulbags with food in them left totally unattended all over the trails at the base of El Cap. No wonder it is now reported that three bears are working the El Cap scene.
HB
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