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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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No sweat. This is a vague and obvioulsy uninformed decision.
The Center for Biological Diversity may be "ecstatic" about this ruling but, thier ecstasy will be short lived.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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Pud what makes you think that? Just curious as to who you feel will go up against this ruling and/or try to sue?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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interesting that the decision was made without involving the user group--us--in the least.
pud has some contact with congressman mckeon's office on this subject. nothing come of that?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
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In March we initiated a meeting between the Federal agencies involved in the Williamson Rock closure to be attended at Congressman Buck McKeon's office in Santa Clarita, CA.
When the Forest Service was invited to attend, they sent a memo to the congressman's office stating "A decision is anticipated to occur spring, 2011. (see 1st post)
Upon receiving this memo, the congressman's office and I agreed to put the meeting "on hold" to see what the outcome of this decision would be.
The decision was to be made by the acting Angeles National Forest Supervisor, Tom Contreres.http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/news/2006/new-supervisor-mendocino.shtml
Mr Contreres is in a 120 day "temporary" position as ANF Supervisor. At the end of this term, he may be appointed "permanent" status, given an additional temporary position or a new candidate may be initiated in a temporary or permanent position. To be detemined by the Western regional offices of the USFS in Valejo, CA.
Since the "anticipated decision" timeframe had passed, I contacted the Congressman's office on 6/22/11.
The Congressman's office is in full support of finding a solution to this long standing problem and have been instrumental in giving a voice to the outdoor community.
I spoke with Congressman Buck Mckeon's office today. When they received my email on 6/22, they sent a request to the USFS regarding the passing of the proposed decision making timeframe.
They are awaiting a reponse and will notify me when this takes place.
My thoughts on Judge Marilyn Hall Patel's latest ruling.
When a District Court Judge for the Northern District of California makes a blanket ruling to "take all necessary measures to better protect 40 endangered species in four national forests in Southern California." it does not mean that the agencies involved will do the right thing to protect these species.
It does mean that the users of this land need to be involved so that Federal Agencies do not continue to close access to our Wilderness, Parks, Monuments and Forests in order to pander to teams of lawyers such as those provided by the Center For Biological Diversity.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
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When a District Court Judge for the Northern District of California makes a blanket ruling to "take all necessary measures to better protect 40 endangered species in four national forests in Southern California." it does not mean that the agencies involved will do the right thing to protect these species.
It does mean that the users of this land need to be involved so that Federal Agencies do not continue to close access to our Wilderness, Parks, Monuments and Forests in order to pander to teams of lawyers such as those provided by the Center For Biological Diversity. pud, I'm curious as to how your meeting turns out. Keep us posted.
I echo your sentiment that a court ruling to protect species may not be implemented in the best manner to protect any one species, let alone 40. It appears at this point that the only "protection" offered is to keep out the people, which may or may not be the cause of the problem. Still, given the decline of the MYLF, which I'm guessing didn't start with people climbing at Williamson, there have to be other factors at play which likely are not being addressed.
Re pandering, I respectfully disagree. I think everyone wants to do what they believe is the right thing. The problem is that people have different views of what that is.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
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I think everyone wants to do what they believe is the right thing. The problem is that people have different views of what that is.
With the Wiliamson Rock issue we have a large group of land users willing and able to work with Federal agencies in order to contribute to a solution and help this endangered species coexist with human activities.
The answer is not to close our forest to recreation but to adapt to it's enviroment so that we are mutually beneficial. This can be done through hard work, cooperation and respect for individual concerns.
By closing this land the Federal Goverment is taking the easy way out and not really addressing the problem. The CBD sues the Feds and they respond by giving in. I cannot respect institution(s) that use these tactics in order to attain thier idea of what is "the right thing".
So far, the Federal agencies involved have not looked for ways to solve the real problems associated with this Species, rather they allow lawsuits and threats of litigation to plot thier course of action.
This is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. If you think you don't have the power to affect change, then you truly do not.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Has anyone spoken directly with the CBD regarding this issue? Are they willing to work with us to find a solution or have they drawn a line in the sand? You would think with a group as large as the CBD there would be a few climbers who might sympathize with us or are they really that militant?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2011 - 12:26am PT
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Batrock,
I contacted the CBD back in March and they were willing to attend the scheduled meeting at that time. I still have contact numbers and names.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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If we could get the trout out of the creek for them it seems we might be able convince them of a climbing off-set.
Just wait until dry season then go in with some nets and stuff. Not easy but if we worked at it for a few years we could make an impact. A couple of 8ft high check dams with frog ladders etc.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Mar 13, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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Very interesting, thanks Chaz.
But probably won't matter to them,they still won't open it. I'll hope otherwise though.
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middle joe
Trad climber
oc
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Mar 13, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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Worldwide, the chytrid fungus has spread to nearly 600 species of frogs, Vredenburg said, and has probably driven more than 200 species to extinction.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/12/MNKO1NJKED.DTL#ixzz1p2MtAPbg
Humm,I always figured that natural predators, not human the presence, was probably the the guilty party here. The Forest Service never had any evidence it was humans, we were just the easiest to exclude. I never even thought about disease! Makes sense.. But I agree, even if you present the Forest Service scientific evidence of a much more likely scenario it's not going to change their minds.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 13, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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They'll probably decide that since the population is stressed there is all the more reason to keep people out...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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I'll foward this to Congressman Buck McKeon's office as well as ANF Supervisor's office.
Unfortunately, Judge Marilyn Hall Patel has already caved into the CBD and thier lawsuits.
I plan on contacting this Carter appointee and giving her more information but work, family and life have put this effort on back burner for the last 6 mos.
Still, the Williamson Rock closure is an irritating manipulation of the system by self-serving individuals calling themselves "environmentalists".
I've learned that some folks here belong to the CBD so I will no longer discuss this issue online.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 13, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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Cool heads must prevail. It is apparent that the immediate course of of action should be the proper training and support of a highly specialized team of Yellow Legged Frogs. This small but effective teams can go into infected areas and immunize the diseased frogs and bring the population back to health. Of course this plan can only work in conjunction with a team of highly trained "killer frogs" to swoop in and eradicate the carriers. FROGY2012
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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i made a couple phone calls on this subject since the last postings. come to find out, the frog population has gone up since the area has been closed. they had a census of 9 frogs when they closed williamson. the next year it was up quite a bit--now it seems to be running at around 30-40 frogs.
it's hard to argue with that. i've learned to climb elsewhere. echo cliff is a distant second as a favorite, and i'm learning to like MCSP and texas canyon. getting further out too, burning more gas on destinations. part of the alternative environmental impact.
we still don't know whether there are 40 MYLFs left on the planet, all at williamson gorge, or whether they continue to exist, though endangered, throughout their historic range, which extended, not that many years ago, from san diego county into oregon. but it's not a need-to-know thing, right?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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there are a few here who really care about this issue. here's how things go--from a "stunning victory" for environmentalists to flat-out golf course development in the space of about three years.
i notice the CBD was not involved. why not? the forest service people seem to be scared to death of them. i'll tell you what was involved, however. lots and lots of money and lawyers crying "i'll sue! i'll sue!"
here's the tradeoff: okay, we can build the golf course right smack in the middle of the sensitive habitat, but we'll buy a few acres upstream and give it to the government so it'll never be developed.
hint: it wouldn't be developed anyway--until someone wants another golf course.
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-09-01/local/me-6906_1_big-tujunga-wash
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/23/local/me-15572
http://articles.latimes.com/1998/feb/22/local/me-21969
http://la.curbed.com/archives/2011/11/big_tujunga_wash_no_longer_belongs_to_a_golf_course.php
some quotes:
"I've never seen a golf course yet where I could get in touch with my Creator," complained Anita Jesse, a Sunland resident who disputed the developer's claims that the course would be environmentally sensitive.
On the other side was Joe Cohen, a Sunland retiree unsympathetic to the fate of the slender-horned spineflower. The spineflower, a plant that lives in the rugged wash and is on the federal endangered species list, would be threatened by construction of the golf club, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service experts have said. "If most people saw this plant in their yard, they'd pull it out as a weed."
but it wasn't just a "weed" at stake.
http://www.theriverproject.org/learn/habitat/wildlife
In Big Tujunga Wash and the Santa Clara River the federally threatened Santa Ana sucker and arroyo chub are still surviving, as is the speckled dace. Before channelization of the rivers, steelhead trout up to three feet long were common.
now, feast your eyes:
http://angelesnational.com/
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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The situation at Williamson sounds exactly like the situation at Summit Rock in Sanborn County Park where Park Staff and the Park and Recreation Commission are trying to keep it closed year-round for Peregrine nesting no matter what one of the foremost peregrine experts in the whole world, Dr. Clayton White, told them. Interesting to note that the yellow-legged frogs are actually threatened by a fungus spread by the American bull-frog:
http://www.baycitizen.org/science/story/despite-deadly-fungus-frog-imports-1/
It's just so transparent how radical environmentalists are using ecological concerns as a pretext for keeping people out of nature, to coin a phrase, creating a "people-free" zone wherever they want to establish such a region no matter what science and reason have to say.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't Richard Pombo shot dead last night in a drive by shooting in Richmond? I heard he was taken to the hospital on life support and pronounced DOA when he was wheeled into ER . . . Wasn't Pompo some kind of Italian-American property owner in the Central Valley who got voted out of office a while back?
I don't think the dichotomy here is Democrat versus Republican; rather it's mentally ill versus sane. You can work with any traditional politico who's trying to create a viable consensus; however, those who retreat into the non-profits don't have to answer to anyone but people who agree with them 100%. Open and democratic versus close-minded and self-referential.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 10, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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FOW?
Things are going just fine without a wanna-be cop who only pretends to have real political power butting in and upsetting the forensic apple cart.
One step at a time. "The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine".
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