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mark
climber
san diego, ca
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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Like we have always made perfect belay stances? Maybe climbing is not all roses and people get hurt and then learn or die doing so...
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mark
climber
san diego, ca
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:07am PT
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boring
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:11am PT
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Accidents do not come from the noob factor, they come to those who deserve.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:17am PT
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Are you sure, Werner?
-Kate.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:18am PT
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You will not be able to save them because you can not even save yourself.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:24am PT
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Um locker, which of you is the melted ice mind and which is the normal mind?
Kinda knowing you both, I would argue that, um, well, yer both not quite normal...or average, anyway.
-Kate.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:34am PT
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You can not forsee the destiny of individuals on their journeys.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:44am PT
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Real knowledge is that this material world is full of danger.
Guard your soul Locker, and your false pride and ego.
We are all eternal nOObs
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 17, 2006 - 09:08am PT
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It's funny how when people talk of their personal spiritual beliefs.....the words just do not translate very well. I think it may be simply because these are things one must find on their own.
Oh...and I misread, and thought the post before said "n00b factory" Ooops.... So, the gyms, and places like rc.com are the processing plants, I was thinking....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2006 - 10:25am PT
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A brief climbing aside - I haven't had the occasion to make it down to JTree yet, but from a lot of the talk on SuperTopo I get the impression it flares a lot and is a pretty large grained rock on top of it. Is that fairly accurate? And if so do the coarse crystals/grains "scale" off it fairly easily? It does sound like a pretty challenging in environment in general for beginning trad climbers and from what's been reported lately it it would seem even experienced trad leaders can very much underestimate it as well.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 17, 2006 - 10:48am PT
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The simple fact is that many new leaders THINK they are making good placements when in fact they are sh#t.
If you are learning to lead please find an experienced trad climber. Get a guide for a day.
Juanito
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 17, 2006 - 10:58am PT
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When I learned to climb it was back in the late 60's and the trad-mentor thing was the way you learned.
Of course, being in my mid-teens I reasoned that at some point I had gathered enough knowledge to go out on my own, without a mentor, much earlier than I now realize was wise. But when you are a teenage guy, wisdom is not a strong quality.
I knew less than a lot of people coming out of the gyms these days, at least in some areas. Somehow I survived that time and actually enjoyed climbing. While you can complain about gyms producing dangerous climbers now, back in the day the Sierra Club Rock Climbing Sections got heaped with that distinction. There are many more people out there now, a larger cross section of the populace and many more opportunities for f*#king-up.
It's easy to blame some factor other than the human one, and as Werner pointed out, because the human factor plays such a large role in what situations happen, none of us are immune.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:02am PT
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Juan,
That's often the case in general everywhere. And as I've said a few times I think even among "experienced" trad climbers there are stratas of folks not unlike what my Father used to describe among commercial pilots: "nervous", "competent", and "natural". He was always suspect and remained on high alert when flying with one of the nervous ones.
What I was more curious about is whether JTree represented a topology/morphology/surface that can onerous to protect well or that makes it difficult to judge the quality of placements. More so than say Eldo or the Gunks...
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TimM
Trad climber
Indian Wells, CA
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:24am PT
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healyje wrote:
" A brief climbing aside - I haven't had the occasion to make it down to JTree yet, but from a lot of the talk on SuperTopo I get the impression it flares a lot and is a pretty large grained rock on top of it. Is that fairly accurate? And if so do the coarse crystals/grains "scale" off it fairly easily? It does sound like a pretty challenging in environment in general for beginning trad climbers and from what's been reported lately it it would seem even experienced trad leaders can very much underestimate it as well."
Most cracks here are not pure cracks. They tend to flare and also open up in the back which makes it hard to blindly plug in a cam. The "scaling" that you talked about does happen ... but not on the more popular routes that I've done ... it seems to be on more of the less climbed routes. IMHO, JT is a challenging area to learn how to place protection.
Tim
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Hootervillian
climber
high ground, twix the carson forks
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:32am PT
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exactly. what makes josh climbs accessible and dangerous is the same thing: the short crags. they are mostly viewable and apparently doable, yet what seperates you from groundfall can often be a single piece and not much rope. combine that with sometimes tricky granite pro, flaring, grainy cracks, and drive up service....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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Thanks guys, that's pretty much what I was surmising from following all these accident threads and looking at what appears to be an ocean of rounded, eroded rocks. It almost seems like every JTree pic is of an entirely different rock over hundreds of photos...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
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As climbing area's go, I would say Joshua Tree has better pro than say Yosemite or TM. I have done way more dangerous climbs in the valley.
But in the valley I think one can fall farther without hitting a bone shattering knob.
Compare say Manure Pile and Lost Horse Wall.
Any fall over 10 feet in Joshua Tree and you are really asking for trouble.
Sew up those cracks newbie.
Juanito
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 17, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
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And wear a helmet. A couple of weeks ago a friend had just started a climb, his piece pulled and he hit the ground from 15'. He hit the back of his head hard on a rock. He walked away from it, thanks to his helmet. Similar circumstance to a recent event, very different outcome thanks to that lid.
Of course, he didn't look cool while climbing. :-P
Also, the person who fell on Toe Jam was helmeted. She drove herself home.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Jan 17, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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I am with Happiegirrl on this one. Gyms, and certain sport climbing areas, are the "processing plants" for such foolishness as this belay. Damn...we have all seen this done, how many times Hardman?
The horizontal crack directly above the climb takes anything from a red alien to a #3 Camelot. But people pass right by and run to those bolts.
I recently received a "gift certificate," to the local gym. I haven't been to a gym in years. There is a list of climbing commands on the posting wall. Get this:
"Rock," akin to someone yelling 'fore" on the golf course.
Yea...right. I think I would take the golf ball, over the bread box size rock that could take your head off...anyday.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 17, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
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I have always belayed at the top of the crack, for all I care sink some bolts right at the end of crack for nOOb belay?
What does nOOb mean?
Did I miss something.
Juan
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