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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 15, 2018 - 06:53pm PT
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Crowley was at Facelift. I hope the information train keeps rolling. And I think Chris and gang do care.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 15, 2018 - 07:00pm PT
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Dang, you all should have been at Oakdale! Major, major. I can't put into words what it was like to hear the first ascenders tell the crazy, scary, fun details of the ascents they did, how they did it, and the luck of survival.
You will never know what you missed. And this is from Lynne, not much of a climber.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Oct 15, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
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Lynne, the only way I know of to recover deleted ST content would be from database backups, that the owners may or may not have.
As Roy mentioned, the Wayback Machine is extremely hit and miss..... mostly miss, when it comes to finding Supertopo posts. I was just lucky to be able to find Warbler's post about Widow's Tears. I looked for a couple threads still on the Taco, and then looked them up on the Wayback. The Wayback Machine does not have a keyword search when it comes to the Taco, so you have to paste in the URL. It's super limited for finding stuff.
I have discussed the deleting policy with RJ, the technical admin for ST. RJ says they don't think its fair to "keep just the good stuff", if they kick someone off ST, and it would take a huge amount of time to go through hundreds or thousands of posts, so they delete the whole account. I guess they also do it for people who ask for their posts to be deleted en masse.
Anyway, its cool to read Kevin's story. I don't know if its in print anywhere else, but if not should get recorded. Crazy that they had one set of tools between them and lowered it to the second! :-)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
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Thanks, Kulun_shan, for the info. Dang, so if I understand correctly the owners of ST don't want to sort info. Just thinking.....I can't judge.
Why would you not want to keep the gems?
*Takes to much time?
*Not enough $ for time?
*Don't care?
*Not in the program?
Shee, I don't know cause I don't know the owners of ST. What I do know is history IS important and it rocks.
I also know solutions can always be found. So how can we come to grips with the very important concept of not losing data here?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 15, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
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Lynne,
I agree with DMT on this point. And think about it, you said it yourself, in praising Steve Grossman's Oakdale events. That's where it's happening.
Grossman is an archivist. And a dedicated one. I've sent him PDFs of ALL of my 100+ threads started on this forum. But that doesn't mean he's ready to take on the gargantuan task to which you so good heartedly point.
CMAC & RJ have made it clear that job one is NOT necessarily respecting our contributions and maintaining the historical value we have shared amongst ourselves on their forum. They claim to make no revenue of any appreciable amount from it. That's a gambit that says: we don't make enough to care about your contributions, you have no leverage with us.
And let's face it: most of us from back in the day have exhausted our trove of pictures and stories.
I have over 5000 pictures in my photobucket linked to this forum.
But I'm done. Sure, I still goof around here, mostly on the Jazz and Formula One threads.
I'm disabled and unable to generate fresh content, which is mostly what I was about: climbing content.
If we want a historical repository, it's up to us to construct it and extract all of our effort from this forum and put it someplace secure. That's been clear for quite a while now.
[nah000 has dutifully & diligently created the framework with his indexes.]
The dog is mangy. Game over.
– Roy
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 15, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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Wow! Great thoughts Tarbuster. At this point in my life with two books going I need to get it done. But, I will keep your great ideas and direction in mind. Jezzz, It's an incredible rock climbing history. The stories are awesome and inspiring! The original community is waning...going to the heavenlies....but what they have accomplished is really beyond the beyond.
The people, the places, the accomplishments as well as the drama. It makes for some great, great stuff. So sorry for any young un's that don't get what they are missing.
Powder, you and your friend are golden, as well as Mark. Carry the torch!
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Trump
climber
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Oct 16, 2018 - 09:15am PT
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it’s here and some momentary sour grapes shouldn’t have us throwing out the good with the bad
What ‘us?’ The supertopo historical society?
If we want a better mousetrap for ourselves, let’s go build it. We’re each free to start a site for other people to complain about us not preserving the awesome legacy of their thoughts and deeds. Or if we prefer to be on the other end of that, carry on.
We’re free to expect other people to play by our rules, but if they don’t choose to do so, don’t blame them for our misunderstanding. Sack up and go lead it ourselves.
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Trump
climber
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Oct 16, 2018 - 09:28am PT
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No anger on my part, just some feedback from my perspective. Seems like it’s been in decline for quite a while, and I don’t expect that’s accidental. If it’s not what we want it to be for our sakes, that’s not their fault. They’re doing it for their sakes.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Oct 16, 2018 - 09:29am PT
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CMAC & RJ have made it clear that job one is NOT necessarily respecting our contributions and maintaining the historical value we have shared amongst ourselves on their forum.
Actually don't you guys and gals remember CMAC came on here maybe 6 to 8 years ago, when he was inspired to catch up and write his annual report. He specifically assured us that all of the historical content was safe and secure and that we could count on that. Remember? Can somebody drag his post up?
Arne
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Oct 16, 2018 - 10:28am PT
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That's the part of it that just seems wrong: he rarely, if ever used foul language or invective.
As one of the few remaining woman who occasionally posts here, I'd like to add my opinion: Although I never complained about him to CMac (because I've never complained about anyone), I'm glad he's gone. He was a toxic element for most of his posts. He was relentlessly, tediously, obnoxious when it came to ANY thread that had anything to do with women. He couched his posts in pseudo-polite, "I'm just being logical" language, but it was always thinly veiled nastiness.
There were many threads that I might have been interested in following, that I just put on my "ignore" list because he decided to take over. There was one thread, can't remember which one in particular because there were so many examples, that I checked into after it had gone on for about 150 posts, and I counted 81 posts from him, repeating the same stuff over and over and over. I suspect he wouldn't have been banned if he had expressed his opinion once per thread, but he seemed to think that he actually won something by the repetitiveness. When in fact, I suspect most people just didn't bother responding to him after a while because, well, this Forum is a transient amusement and we actually have lives to live.
I really don't give a f%$K what the guy ever climbed or climbs now. Does anyone really still think it matters to anyone but the person doing it?
Anyway, I wish him well and hope he finds happiness.
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John M
climber
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Oct 16, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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Thanks for speaking up Phylp.
I rethought my earlier post where I said that I didn't think that he was all that bad because I realized that what I had done with Kevin was to just start ignoring him, so I had forgotten just how pervasive and toxic his opinion on women was. I agree with you that it wouldn't have been as bad if he hadn't hammered on it so much.
really don't give a f%$K what the guy ever climbed or climbs now. Does anyone really still think it matters to anyone but the person doing it?
this is one area that I disagree with you. What people accomplish intrigues me and often inspires me. It helps one to get through this life if they have inspiration, so I appreciate those who strive hard and accomplish incredible things.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Oct 16, 2018 - 10:59am PT
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Here it is, from CMAC himself 2012
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 10, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
My Three Goals for SuperTopo Forum in 2012; what are yours?
Many thanks to everyone who contributed to the Improve SuperTopo 2012 Thread. That is, and will hopefully continue to be, a great place to post concrete, fix-it style improvements for the SuperTopo Forum.
Now here more generally is what I hope the SuperTopo Forum can achieve – the overall feel of the Taco.
**2) Preserve history
A lot of Historical Gold has been posted here from Yosemite, Colorado, Alaska and around the world. I love the fact that a web search for old climbing history often directs the searcher to the SuperTopo Forum. Best of all, many of the people who made that history post here! Some people have asked if this historical stuff is safe here. Answer: Yes. We have been around since 2000 (the Stone Age in climbing Forum time) and are not going anywhere. We have a business model learned from living in Camp 4: even with low income, you can always keep your expenses even lower. (And grab leftover pizza from the Curry Deck when necessary).**
Edit-I didn't find another more elaborate post from CMAC on this where he talks about new server upgrades and how safe and secure the climbing history is.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 16, 2018 - 11:36am PT
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Thanks for digging that up, Arne.
The problem arises when, rather than slapping the hand of a transgressor, such as Kevin has been deemed, that instead of just deactivating his account, they, for repeat offenders such as he, strip out all of his prior posts in their entirety.
That is not preserving his rich contribution to the historical record of climbing.
And this is what some of us don't understand: why not just ban him from the forum, at the point that he (or anyone) becomes a problem, remove the offending posts, as they sometimes do, but leave the worthwhile contributions up to that point? It's obviously meant to dissuade others from misbehaving, but that strategy is enacted at great expense to the historical record. No?
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Oct 16, 2018 - 11:45am PT
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Well, can't somebody just ask CMAC? Say, hey, what the hey CMAC? Explain please.
Harrison? You know Chris very well. Who can just ask him?
Arne
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Oct 16, 2018 - 11:47am PT
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Database backups will be culled for historical content and then published as a book by RJ and Cmac.... Sales will be in the dozens... all original content will be used without permission as per the TOS of this site.
#VanityPress
#ShouldaPutARingOnIt
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Trump
climber
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Oct 16, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
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I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
No new taxes!
Mission accomplished!
Pretty much anything the current POTUS says.
People say stuff. Heck, I say stuff. Are we still believing all that stuff other people say?
We don’t understand. Fair enough. Understanding is a hard thing to do! Trying to understand why they do what they do, rather than paying most of our attention to why we would do it differently, is probably a good start.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Oct 16, 2018 - 12:33pm PT
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The Warbler seems a special case because he contributed climbing content AND got banned, an unusual combination.
Most of the banned really never offered much to begin with. Has anyone searched the archives for a nugget of fatrad or rokjox history or wisdom?? Aside from self deletions and Warbler I'm not certain much has been lost. I don't think it's reasonable to ask the site owners to sift through the postings of someone they have decided to boot to see if there is there is anything worth keeping, because in most cases the bannie is being booted for what they posted.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 16, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
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Rokjox: ha!
All of his actual posts cannot be searched, because they've been wiped clean.
Counting this post, there are 2924 posts bearing his name, either in thread titles, or in independent posts with people addressing him directly by name. Obviously, he was popular by some metric.
(But that's not the point, it's just ... interesting.)
………………………………………………
CMAC & RJ know damn well that Kevin Worrall contributed hugely to this forum with historical climbing oriented content. His posts didn't need to be searched to make a determination.
This is a spare the rod and spoil the child lazy tactic (actually the reverse).
CMAC & RJ just don't want to moderate in the conventional sense, not that I blame them.
But draconian, scorched earth tactics on guys like Kevin, deleting his entire retinue of posts and deleting entire threads on important topics like women's involvement/feminism in climbing, just to implement a disciplinary action against an errant individual and make a point to the rest of us would-be transgressors, are senseless.
To understand how Chris feels about Supertopo, and appreciate his perspective, which I do, along with some insight into his management philosophy, check out this Ernomocast interview:
https://enormocast.com/2015/09/episode-88-chris-mcnamara-living-the-ever-changing-dream/
The Supertopo discussion starts at 29 min.
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Trump
climber
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Oct 16, 2018 - 02:18pm PT
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this is what some of us don’t understand: why .. This is a spare the rod and spoil the child lazy tactic (actually the reverse).
CMAC & RJ just don’t want to moderate in the conventional sense ..
Oh so you do understand.
Yea I say stuff too, and more often than not it’s stuff designed to work to my advantage, and if it needs to be to other people’s disadvantage (let me count the ways they suck for not doing things the way I prefer, or whatever), well ok then.
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