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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:59pm PT
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Right Norton. Warren might have been "tougher" than anyone else. However that all was coming to an end as it had to.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:59pm PT
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Eric's post suggests that someone should ask Bridwell or Schmitz about what they knew and when they knew it. So to speak.
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john hansen
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2011 - 11:04pm PT
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Paging Todd Gorden..
This thread has morphed in interesting ways
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
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The climbing elite's view on Warren at this point was not sympathetic. This included not just RR and his buds but the new young top climbers living in Camp in those years. Warren was thought of as a has-been, ignorant of what we had been accomplishing and perilously out-of-date. About as stubborn as a climber could be and still remain alive. It was assumed he was done and when he went up on his line, it was basically anachronistic.
By this point, there were serious intentions on the wall by a few younger modern parties but by somewhat various lines. There even were excursions up there. Granted, that part of El Cap is about as extreme a wall as Yosemite presents. It was supposed to be "our modern wall". LIttle did we know that El Capitan's future was to host more than a hundred routes and even a girdle traverse.
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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I think it is very relevant to point out that the previous spring, Chuck Kroger and Scott Davis did the Heart Route on spring break from Stanford. This was accomplished in one push with minimal bolting, and received zero publicity in the main stream press.
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scuffy b
climber
Three feet higher
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Jan 28, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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In the 1971 Ascent is a photograph, I believe accompanying Chris Jones'
essay in support of the AAC, of two climbers on a Dawn Wall attempt,
according to the caption.
Any clue who the climbers were, or any details of their attempt, or any
others?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
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Don't have that copy on hand at the moment, Scuff. But I know that Bridwell and Schmitz had been up there and even had a fixed rope on it forever. As usual those two had a hard time getting fully committed to their plan. And to add to Eric's important point just above, Kroger and Davis actually ---and I have to say naively---thought they could attempt the wall too. The point was made to them that, flat out, they had to stay away from it. So instead they went over to the Heart and jumped on this much more obvious and easier line. A line I have to say that Don Peterson and I were within two or three days of starting ourselves.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
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Scuffy- Several attempts were made to traverse from El Cap Tower to connect with the upper part of the Dawn Wall before Charlie hooked the whole show together. Porter gets credit for the whole link-up and only had to do a couple of new pitches.
Look in the yellow Meyers guide for the personnel on those early attempts. I believe that Chouinard and Hennek were among that crew. My copy isn't handy at the moment. I would be very interested in Dennis' recollections from those attempts.
I think that the acceptance of a route where approximately every third or fourth placement is drilled was the sticking point. If the community gave Harding and Caldwell the nod then why not the next party showing up with a similar approach?
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jan 28, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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Yes Hennek was on that-I will send him an e-mail and see if he can join this most interesting discussion.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 28, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
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Perhaps vigilantism had to evolve from the early '70s to,...............................................WOS!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 29, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
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Peter- You guys were that close to getting on the Heart Route? Amazing...
I find it very funny that their eye was drawn to the Dawn Wall area as it obviously was going to take a lot of drilling. The "Barbarians," Jim and Kim, did them a huge favor.
How much climbing did you do with Peterson? Did you have anything to do with Don hooking up with Royal for Tis-sa-ack?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 30, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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I have been reading Taylor’s “Pilgrims of the Vertical” and just finished the chapter that ended with the WEML. Taylor does a fine job of adding perspective to both sides of the Robbins-Harding style debate.
To try to answer John's initial question, I read through the references in Taylor's book (there are 72 pages of them) to see if there was a published connection between The Compressor route on Cerro Torre and Royal and Don’s second ascent of the WEML. There are in fact several references, but they seem to be after Royal and Don did the second ascent.
Royal wrote about WEML in Summit in December 1970. I don’t have any of those early Summits, so I cannot read what he wrote but its seems unlikely that Royal knew about the Compressor Route bolting when he wrote about WELM in December, 1970: no time.
However, maybe there is a chance that Royal knew about the Compressor route before he and Don climbed the WEML in January of 1971. My guess is that he did not, unless he had some knowledge that Ken Wilson did not seem to have. Mountain Magazine would have certainly published any information about Cerro Torre, so I checked Ed’s “Mountain” Index thread Mountain Index and found several references to Cerro Torre and Maestri in 1970 and 1971.
As I understand it, Maestri climbed to within 360 meters of the summit of Cerro Torre in July of 1970 in a winter ascent try. Mountain published several bits before that attempt and between the winter attempt and the later attempt where Maestri added another 300 meters to the climb.
These are the Mountain issues referencing Cerro Torre and Maestri in 1970 and early 71.
8 1970 March
9 1970 May
10 1970 July
11 1970 September
12 1970 November
13 1971 January
I don’t own any of these early editions, but there are several references to Maestri and Cerro Torre, so I can only surmise the subject matter by the dates.
Prior to Maestri’s winter attempt (the first number is the Mountain issue; the second is the page number):
Cerro Torre, planned expeditions, 7-3, 8-8, 11-7;
Maestri's 1959 ascent contested, 8-8, 9-6;
Carretto, Guido: interview The Cerro Torre Enigma: Maestri speaks, 9-32
Cerro Torre, 1959 ascent contested, 9-6;
After winter attempt but prior to second attempt:
Maestri, Cesare: Cerro Torre, attempt, 11-7;
Prior, Ron: Roda di Vael, Maestri, 12-9
Reports of the Compressor Route are in the January 1971 (13) and July 1971 (16) issues:
Maestri, Cesare: 2nd ascent, by S.E. Ridge, 13-11, 15-8;
Letters, Maestri's S.E. Ridge asc., 16-38, 18-41
The South East Ridge of Cerro Torre by Cesare Maestri translated by Alan Heppenstell (illus.), 16-23; Torre, Cerro:;
It is only in issue 23 that Mountain's titles shows its outrage at the bolting:
Cerro Torre, a Mountain Desecrated! illus., 23-cover (illus. and photodiagrams), 23-20;
Round Eleven on Cerro Torre (S.E. Ridge, attempt) by Leo Dickinson (illus.), 23-27;
Cesare Maestri interviewed, 23-30;
If someone has copies of these old Mountains, please check them for references to Maestri’s 360 bolts.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 30, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
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One of the most interesting bits of history on the WEML is revealed in Eric's post. This battle of wills has always been portrayed as more or less between Royal and Warren. Peter points out, rightly in my opinion, that most Valley climbers were opposed to Warren climbing the WELM, especially since he avoided the previous attempt's route off the ground to make a straighter line but with a clear cost of many more holes.
What is interesting about Eric's comment is that the idea of erasing the route was not just Robbins'. Maybe this is too subtle of a distinction, but saying Eric, Jim and Kim thought of chopping the route before Royal did so, puts Royal's action is to a completely different light, even if Royal didn't know about the conversation the younger climbers were having at Squaw Valley. It is one thing for Royal to gain the support of his peers in deciding to erase Warren’s route; it is another for the same idea to have been discussed by a group of climbers that was not very close to Royal.
I would like to repeat that Taylor’s Pilgrims of the Vertical is an excellent source for Valley history, especially as it relates to Warren and Royal squaring off.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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Very much agreed on all of that just above, Roger. And Taylor's book is especially good on this controversy---maybe the best part of the work along with his description of the Sierra Club days.
Yes. After Warren and Dean cleared the stage, there was near unanimity: tear that route right outta there! The fury was amazing. It was a perfect storm of competitiveness, jealously, self-righteous denial of Warren's right to go do what he did, and finally the shock that Warren was still even active in the community. I did not know anyone who did not at least "feel" outrage.
However, aside from the problem of really climbing such a huge and difficult line or the other problem of removing hundreds of pieces in the old-school way of just bashing away without tuning forks and other tools, there was the problem of good judgement, polity and having other pressing matters at hand.
So as most did, my friends and I egged whomever felt like it to go up there and go "all death panel" on the thing, as Russ would now say. But of course this did not preclude us later to then turncoat on them and then point our finger at RR and Lauria, suggesting they were totally out of order (laughing). As history has a way of really clearing things up, it soon became the prevailing notion that RR had finally really laid an egg, so to speak. And Warren actually gained more ground, year after year, amongst the rising tide of sympathetics.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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The fact that Robbins and Lauria felt it was urgent enough to do it in February - essentially, as soon in the year as it was (barely) feasible - speaks for itself. Given that they took six days, and the technology of the time, a fairly committing thing to do.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
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Talking about Royal vs. Warren in regards to the WOEML makes sense, the connection with the Compressor Route does not. I have always been against unnecessary bolting (how do you define that) and the WOEML certainly is an example of that, though Warren has always been a more sympathetic personality to me than Royal.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
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Actually Anders, RR knew and sure, Don did too, that wall is about as hot as walls get in the Valley in the better months. It is quite a bit hotter than the Nose even, as it doesn't get nearly the regular breezes. And you wake up with the sun on your ass, right now. If you can grab good weather on it, winter may be thought as optimum. For example even Tommy C and Kevin were real clear on that, climbing on it in November, sleeping during the day even to avoid the heat.
Yeah, often not recognized, a 6-day ascent of this line back in 1970 was doing really well. And they were actually chopping for a third of it too...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
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> that wall is about as hot as walls get in the Valley in the better months
Dihedral is hotter - afternoon sun, fewer breezes.
Dawn/Mescalito area is actually very nice - morning sun, afternoon shade.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Unless there's a storm, especially a cold, wet one. And forecasts then weren't much good for more than two days.
Some climbs of El Capitan had been done or finished in November, as of 1970 - but had any been done in February?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 30, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
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PTPP said: But all accounts, Maestri was a liar and a buffoon.
Not in the Italian world as I understand it. Much like Harding, you can't compare the early dude with the later dude but yet they are the same. Maestri might have been those things on the Compressor route, but Italians do not believe it of him in general.
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