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Ouch!
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 06:34pm PT
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That's it Ramjet. I've seen enough. I'm hijacking this thread.
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426
Sport climber
That one arete, HP40, AL
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Dec 30, 2005 - 06:41pm PT
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Fuggin Hellemans, always with the Hellemans.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 30, 2005 - 06:44pm PT
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Links to arguments for Forknowledge of Pearl Harbor
http://members.aol.com/apollo711/war/pearl.html
Link to Memo outlining plan to provoke Japanese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollum_memo
But I really just want to keeping hammering on this until a few people answer me...
Answer my damn question at the End
THE US GOVERNMENT HAS ACTUALLY PLANNED TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST THE US. It wasn't during a GOP administration either. Sh#t happens. check out
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
"Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."
Let say that Kennedy didn't 86 the plan which was signed off on by the whole Joint Chiefs, and a round of violent terrorist attacks were pulled off by the Kennedy Government on Americans.
This very nearly happened . Ask yourself this question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
We believe what we want to believe. If something is too far out of our worldview and experience, our mind glances right over it.
If you can at least answer my question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
You will at least prove your mind can go there
peace
karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 30, 2005 - 06:46pm PT
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Where have I seen that before?
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426
Sport climber
That one arete, HP40, AL
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Dec 30, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
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Karl, anyone who is that blind to the possibility clearly hasn't looked into the PNAC and their 'need' for a "pearl harbor type event"...
It's all in the public record, probably 3 clicks away...
..we can probably point out other cases where certain "peoples" trusted the Gov....
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Ouch!
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 06:58pm PT
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Given Bush and the neocons disrespect for the constitution, nothing this bunch did would surprise me much if they get desperate enough in their flagrant attempt to rewrite events and try to prevent history from revealing Bush as the blundering fool he is.
I doubt they can keep up the pretense forever. History will record they gave away the US to China and Mexico. No conspiracy theory here. Just plain happenings.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 06:59pm PT
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It works like this Karl ......
In a room are 100 blind men and their leader is a blind man. One day a man who can see enters and says no you have this wrong you are not seeing correctly. They listen in disbelief as it can not be so. This man that can see is upsetting their whole universe and causing great agitation.
Thus they came together under their common knowledge that this outsider is truly insane. We must kill him before it causes undo turmoil and unrest amongst us.
This is how we all behave at times .......
So who really is the one that is correct here?
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426
Sport climber
That one arete, HP40, AL
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Dec 30, 2005 - 06:59pm PT
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Like I just said, Raj, do your research on the PNAC...
The rabbit hole goes deeper than just sticking your head in the sand and "callin' it good"...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 07:02pm PT
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Yes, I like that analogy of the rabbit hole 426.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2005 - 07:05pm PT
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Werner,
Just my take on one aspect of the whole. In general I don't really believe "we" blew the buildings primarily because when I was in the Navy part of the job for my last year in Vietnam was putting together the daily briefings for the joint theatre chiefs and that had me working for the head of Naval Intelligence for the Pacific and reps from 12 other intel agencies on both sides of the fence. I had broad access to quite a range of material. That experience convinced me that these guys could never pull off all the requisite staging, coordination, covers, and secrecy necessary to get the job done with even a remote chance of not being found out immediately. None of the agencies/orgs that would have to all be involved give each other a shred of respect and barely the time of day let alone get in that deep together.
I do think it's a story of an endless litany of missed opportunities over eight years - particularly direct and repeated attempts to warn us from numerous foreign agency and independent sources. Add that to a totally embarassing bureaucratic performance by the FBI relative to the flight schools (all republican owned with a high Saudi/M.E. enrollment rate) and the Air Force's inability to scramble fighters over DC and it was a veritable orgy of ineptitude.
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426
Sport climber
That one arete, HP40, AL
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Dec 30, 2005 - 07:08pm PT
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Well, likewise with your post, Mr. Braun...
Was it Voltaire or perhaps Dick Van Patten who said, "It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind."
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 30, 2005 - 07:15pm PT
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I'm with Healyje.
I don't think the Government is anywhere near competent enough to pull off the "Crime of the Century" and keep a lid on things.
Hell, they can't even deliver the Mail half the time.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 07:18pm PT
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There were reports that israel had their hand in it also.
We can speculate "I don't think" and we can speculate "I think" but neither of them do us any good what so ever until we see a full scale investigation done by unbiased non political, non govt. agencies, and parties who have no objectives except to get the whole truth free from all vested interests.
Where do we find these kind of guys?
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426
Sport climber
That one arete, HP40, AL
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Dec 30, 2005 - 07:28pm PT
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Here, since the 'legwork' seems a little daunting on the PNAC...
"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."
..."Rebuilding America's Defenses"...(Cheney, Rumsfeld, Libby, et al)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3249.htm
I guess the whole issue boils down to, are you for hegemony or against it?
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alpine410
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 30, 2005 - 07:35pm PT
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I think that too many people spend their time complaining and whining about the government. Why don't they man up and do something constructive?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 30, 2005 - 07:36pm PT
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Did you read the link Raj. There are photocopies of the government documents. Maybe they "made up the whole thing?"
Did Ya'll know that 6 of the highjackers the FBI indentified as being behind 9-11 are STILL ALIVE? The FBI director even admitted it, but then they went back to sticking to their story. Kinda funny that we don't know really know who flew those planes.
See
http://www.prisonplanet.com/fbi_denies_mix_up_of_911_terrorists.htm
"The six claimed they were victims of identify theft. They were "outraged" to be identified as terrorists, they told the Telegraph of London. In fact, one of the men claimed he never had been to the United States, while another is a Saudi Airlines pilot who said he was in a flight-training course in Tunisia at the time of the attacks.
The stunning news prompted FBI Director Robert Mueller to admit that some of the hijackers may have stolen identities of innocent citizens. In September 2002, Mueller told CNN twice that there is "no legal proof to prove the identities of the suicidal hijackers." After that admission a strange thing happened - nothing. No follow-up stories. No follow-up questions. There was dead silence and the story disappeared. It was almost as if no one wanted to know what had happened. In fact, the FBI didn't bother to change the names, backgrounds or photographs of the alleged 19 hijackers. It didn't even deny the news reports suggesting that the names and identities of at least six of the hijackers may be unknown. Mueller just left the door open."
Look and you'll see
I beggers believe that Hanjour could have even pulled off his flight path as a dropout of flight school
"It is doubtful that the best trained fighter pilots could have executed the maneuver that supposedly crashed a 757 into the Pentagon. It required making a tight 270-degree turn while descending seven thousand feet, then leveling out so as to fly low enough over the highway just west of the Pentagon to knock down lamp posts. After crossing the highway the pilot had to take the plane to within inches of the ground so as to crash into the Pentagon at the first-floor level and at such a shallow angle that an engine penetrated three rings of the building, while managing to avoid touching the lawn. And he had to do all of this while flying over 400 mph. Quite a feat for a flight school flunky who had never sat in the cockpit of a jet!"
http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/badpilots.html
Here's a bigger list of anomolies for those interested. I'm sure some of them mean nothing
http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html
Peace
karl
I'm not saying any more about this. Werner is right. Ya'll will be ready to skin me soon. Bachar, you take over for awhile
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 30, 2005 - 08:03pm PT
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Hell, they can't even deliver the Mail half the time.
Actually, the post office does a great job.
If you are into conspiracy, get a copy of the John Birch blue book. Pure concentrated paranoia from front to back. A little hazy on history, though.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 30, 2005 - 08:19pm PT
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Gary:
"Actually the Post Office does a great job".
Not around here it doesn't. Just this year, the Post Office took it upon itself to return-to-sender among other things:
-my election materials (two years in a row)
-my car insurance renewal notice
-a bill from my dentist
-a refund check from the Federal Government
All these letters had my address on them.
I have been at the same address for 8 years.
If you think that is doing a "great job", then I'd hate to see what you would consider a shi-tty job.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 09:08pm PT
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Karl, one of the main lessons from the Northwood document "incident" is that sh#t didn't happen. Nothing ever came of it. Kinda supports my points above.
"With all major media outlets now owned by big business (was it ever any other way?) why would you expect any sort of real investigation into these sorts of charges. They are the ones behind the whole thing in the first place. "
You are making the mistake of treating all media and businesses as some giant, unified, singular coordinated entity. True there are fewer media outlets than there were a few years ago, but it is still a competitive business. The outlet that gets a credible scoop any sort of 9/11 conspiracy would make mucho $$$.
I'm with Chaz on this, who wrote:
"Yea-Conspiracy
Conspiracy of practitioners of Radical Islam. "
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Dec 30, 2005 - 09:25pm PT
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The meister troller returns. Where is Juan all this time?
Come on Karl... What malarkey!! He has to hit the first floor. You are assuming he intended to hit the first floor. Any floor on that side of the Pentagon or the other side gets him the virgins.
Rajmeister cranks 'em in. Long live the master.
Troll hijack.
Karl probably can expound on this one... Who or what is Mossadeq?
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