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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 19, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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Why would you want to deal with a colleted system when you can use a SDS head?
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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John/Aric,
It is a 3/4 straight shank. I can remember what steel it was made of (1010?). They come in a harder state so boring them out and tuning them up on a lathe is really hard on the inserts (even carbide).
What I did with that one was cut it to length with an abrasive chop saw (this messes up the temper on the striking end). Chuck it into the lathe and use an angle grinder to put in the grove for the wrist loop.
They come pre threaded for a drawbar (i think 3/8 bore, cant remember the threads). I then bored the center out on the lathe to accept a hardend rod of O1 or W1 tool steel, and pressed fit in the back. I have also used a grade 8 threaded rod then chopped it flush.
The cons I found are:
-They need to be in an annealed state in order to be worked easily.
-The lock nuts are expensive. Normially around 20-40 bones just for the nut. Even from Hong Kong with shipping they are not cheap.
-The wrench flats are very shallow, I think that over time they would start to round off.
 The locknut has short large threads, I felt that over time they would vibrate the collet loose and "bye bye drill bit" or if the bit bound in a hole, you would need to re tighten it hopefully not while @ a stance.
-They need to have some sort or corrosion coat, as they are not stainless.
I am sure there are more reasons, this is just off of the top of my head.
Pros are:
-ER 16 collets are normially cheaper and easier to find.
-A standard mini bike bar grip fits like a glove, although this is a bitch to put on.
The hurricane has fine threads which help in holding the bit snugly in the collet and the DA 200 collet is designed more for drilling than for sideways pressure like the ER 16. I was really considering makeing these but they are way labor intensive, the parts are not cheap as well.
We all know that the Hurricane design is proven. Which is why I wanted to start this thread to see if there would be enough interest. It is a lot of Loot to have tied up.
As far as the drill chuck design, I have tried this as well, they work ok but are heavy and big.
I do have a hurricane that is made out of Titanium stock. I heard these are pretty rare. Super light, corrosion resistant, solid.
Downside is really, really expensive to make.
I have also thought about getting small retailers involved. The downside to this is the cost will get driven up by the time everyone makes their margin. If I distribute them, It will help keep the costs down. Maybe sell off what I could them set them up for wholesale and get them out on the market.
Thanks,
Luke
PS:
I will count the requests tonight on here, and add up requests I have gotten by word of mouth and see if I can make a decision. I am supposed to let the machine shop know tomorrow.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Dec 19, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
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But as a fan of the rocpec and its simplicity, why doesnt someone get into making HSS style bits that have the SDS style connection?
Exactly!
The Rocpec has two major flaws. The pinching grip which is only slightly annoying and the fact that you can't buy 4" x 3/8" SDS bits. I can get 4" X 1/4" bits which work great, but the 3/8" drill bits only come in 6" lengths.
A HSS bit with a SDS base would be the ultimate ticket. You could cut the drills down to whatever length you want, re-sharpen them, change them quickly on lead, use the same drill without modification to accept 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" bits. Changing the drill bits would be the ultimate ticket, not the drill.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Dec 19, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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Sounds cool Luke.
nice prototype, by the way.
I think we made four prototypes before finalizing the design. We looked hopelessly for a stock nut we could use, but nothing came up. We then designed customized threads which definitely upped the cost, but it worked!
ps. I was using the lathes over at the Chums factory to make the various threads we tried when we were making the protos. Kudos to Mike Tagget--now there is a real innovator and champion of cool--here's what he's up to now: http://www.henryworks.com/aboutus.html
--by the way, when I say "we", my original partner on the HMW project was one of the machinists at Chums, Tim Martin. He was a real genius when it came to designing and making automated machines. But of course once we made our prototypes, we outsourced the manufacturing of each part.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 19, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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@Duece- I don't reckon the keyless chuck would work: heavy, and not really designed to be impacted.
Dunno... I've got one on my corded hammerdrill and haven't had any issues with it (loosening or damage). Perhaps there's a specific type of drill chuck for hammer use? To be honest, I've never looked into it.
Also re: the pin/hole in the nut- a pin wrench would be a much more robust design... Much less likely to pop out and deform the hole. And actually, it seems to me the BD nut tool might have enough of a hook on it to work for this. Or you could make your wrench double as a nut tool...
@Luke- Didn't know you were a machinist... Awesome.
As far as the drill chuck design, I have tried this as well, they work ok but are heavy and big....
No worries; you just got me thinking so I figured I'd toss some ideas out there. :-)
Neighbor finally finished up, so here's the ER16 collet chuck I was talking about (which the neighbor apparently managed to spin in the lathe chuck, judging by the markings on it. Grr.). Anyway, with a 1/4" collet (heavier than the 3/8") it comes in at 5.8oz. Admittedly it's a bit on the short side of things at 3.75" OAL, but that could be compensated for with the insert on the end for hammering on (threads are 7/16-20 LH). It's not terribly hard (~HRC45), but then again there's no machining that would need to be done since it's short and straight shank. IIRC I got it from either Enco or Travers and it's made in the USA (Craftsman Industries). Threads on the shank/nut look to be M19x1 (weird that they mixed systems, but my 25tpi gage doesn't quite fit and 1mm is dead nuts). And actually, now that I look at their site I may well have bought it direct from them rather than Enco or Travers (not seeing it on either of their sites). They do DA chucks with low profile nuts as well, BTW.
The other option I was thinking is a tube bored to accept a 3C collet and a nice big aluminum disk on the end that both protects the hand and tightens the collet (most likely with a steel nut insert). 3C goes up to 1/2", but to be honest I've never handled one and have no idea how much they weigh.
Here's a 3C collet, which should be enough to give you an idea what I'm talking about:
Ok, enough meddling.... :-)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 19, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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Bosch makes shorter 3/8" SDS bits. Is bit availability really your issue with an SDS style driver?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 19, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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47 seconds??? Holy smokin’ drill bits, Deucey! For a 1 1/4” shorty? I think it was Al Dude who told me about how he watched you drill a quarter-inch hole in a parking lot boulder at an insanely fast speed. And something about how you were sitting and drilling straight down, and you were using a mini-sledge hammer. True? Were you using an over-sized hammer for the Cochise gig? That’s FAST!
I’m not so sure that the knurled lock nut would work for hand tightening, even with a leverage bar inserted into the nut. It seems that to really keep a drill bit tight in the Hurricane, you have to really crank down on the nut. I crank the nut down by hand, using the wrenches, then put one wrench against the rock such that I can put my upper body weight into the other wrench to crank it down further. This prevents the bit from loosening at times when you really don’t want to have to deal with wrenches. Yes, it is one drawback to the system, especially if you are not used to dealing with the wrenches on lead.
Cool collet talk.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 19, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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That's the feature/problem with the Double Angle collets, Minerals. The steep ramp angles (45 degree included front / 30 degree included rear) make it self-releasing, but also don't convert terribly much of the force from tightening the nut into clamping force. The ER series is much, much better for this (16 degree included angle), but is not self releasing. This isn't a problem though, since the ER series has a lip built into the nut to automatically pull the collet out of the locked position when unscrewed. I'm not seeing specs on the angle of the 3J at the moment, but I suspect it's somewhere between the ER and DA.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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While at his place, I used a drill Theron designed and built that was pretty sweet.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Dec 19, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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yeh, the hand tighten idea is probably no gud. Sounds like some good ideas and good craftsmen out there! Good Luck and Cheers!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 19, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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Hmmmm…
I agree with Luke that the original Hurricane design is hard to beat, but all of this new collet talk has got me thinking. Do all of the other collet systems require a wrench/wrenches? Are there any collet systems in existence that can be tightened by hand, maybe with some sort of stiff spring-loaded mechanism like that of the RocPec? Would a more aggressive collet angle and increased clamping force allow for such a design? Or do we then run into the loosening problem again, as just discussed above?
Hmmmm…
Where’s Theron? Is he hiding in secrecy?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 19, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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Bosch makes shorter 3/8" SDS bits. Do you have a source for them? We are talking about 2" usable length, 4" overall length 3/8" SDS bits - no one makes them as far as anyone can find. I just checked the Bosch online catalog and they do not have anything shorter than 4" usable, 6" overall.
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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Maybe an ER16 collet system made in a custom holder, with tighter threads and a new locknut would be another option. By doing this we would still be @ needing to make the parts, and it has not been tested. One thing about the locknuts that use a spanner wrench to tighten, the notches tend to tear up your palms. The nice thing about the hurricane is that the longer locknut comes real close to the wrench flats. Helps level out the drill.
The ER16 collet holders I have seen and used have a larger gap between the flats and the locknut. I also had to knock some of the threads off the body as they cut into your hand.
Looks nice Aric!
Luke
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 19, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
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Are there any collet systems in existence that can be tightened by hand...
I suppose that depends on how big a nut you're willing to have on the end. :-)
But yeah, collets with a shallower included angle should provide more clamping force for a given tightness on the nut (e.g. ER clamps tighter than DA). @Luke- did you have any problems with loosening with your ER16 setup?
On another note, I finally found some specs on the 3J collets and it doesn't look like they'd get us much over ER16... They use a 26tpi thread with a larger included angle, so the 1mm thread of the ER series (~25.4tpi) would probably be a better candidate for a wrenchless design.
Another thought would be to dispense with the nut and instead have a lever that presses on a washer on the front of the collet when the lever is pulled back alongside the shaft of the handle (sorry, can't think of any examples of something similar). It would make changing collets a PITA, but swapping drills would be a simple matter of popping the lever outwards, swapping in the new drill and pulling the lever back in place. Seems overly complicated compared to a nut and wrench though, and would cost more since you're not using off the shelf parts.
EDIT- @Luke- Perhaps I should mock something up with that collet chuck? I'd just have to scrounge up a piece of steel for the hammer end and a rubber grip. Where'd you find the BMX grip for yours?
EDIT x2- BTW, I found the receipt and it appears I got that collet chuck from Enco. It's part #308-0021 and at the moment has a Web Price of a whopping $57.95. The 5/8" straight shank would be a bit lighter and is $60.95.
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
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Aric,
I never had a problem in the little testing that I did with my proto, just had really lock it down. It was a concern I had considered. The whole thing was one of those "what if..." projects.
Luke
Aric: I bought the grips here in town. I could check later on tonight to see what brand they were.
Edit: Eric what are your thoughts on heat treatment?
So if that was the base price par the collet holder and lock nut, you would still need to add grips, 2 swages, 3/32" cable, PVC tube, Collet, grip glue, Hardened insert, heat treatment and time.
Just seeing howtotal cost would compare to a hurricane.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 19, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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It was more of a Sports-Authority-or-actual-bike-shop kinda question, Luke, so no need to dig too deep. :-)
FWIW, I've never had any sort of problems with the ER16 chuck on my milling machine coming loose (and I do all sorts of unpleasant things to it for lack of having a decent sized mill). I have had to resort to a short cheater bar for loosening it on two occasions though...
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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The grips came from a motorcycle shop. They fit a mini from what I recall.
Luke
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 19, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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“The nice thing about the hurricane is that the longer locknut comes real close to the wrench flats. Helps level out the drill.”
Good point, Luke, and I think it is something that is important. Could you make a new nut for the ER16 collet that has a hex shape, like the nut on the Hurricane?
Neat looking prototype! Are the ER16 collets as easy to find as the DA collets?
Another plus about sticking with the original design (which still kicks ass) is that there are quite a few Hurricane drills out there already and those who already have one can then interchange parts with their new Hurricane, or vice versa, should they need to. Ya know… for backup parts. I now have a collection of collets and it’s nice to be able to swap them from drill to drill or replace worn out ones during routine drill maintenance and cleaning.
Adatesman, thanks for the info. Unless we come up with some crazy new ideas, it sounds like a collet and wrench system is still the way to go. Your flip-lever idea sounds interesting. Yeah, just like a quick-release mount for rifle optics, etc., where the lever turns a cam that progressively puts more force on the locking mechanism, or collet in this case. Good idea! But yes, more parts and more expensive to make.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 19, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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If you guys find a moto grip that works and you decide to go with it for production, let me know. I worked at one of the moto shops here in town for a short while and could check with them to see if they could provide the grips at a quantity discount. We have a Parts Unlimited warehouse here in town too, so no shortage of moto parts usually.
Luke, did you have to buy a pair of mini grips or were you able to buy just one? Throttle tube side or bar side (different IDs).
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