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klk
Trad climber
cali
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thimble of the nineties--
it's that sandstone deal that paul & jeff did up in the condor reserve. can't remember what they called it. and don't have the time to pull the book off the shelf.
all those deals back in there were really sporty. good rock, too. i gather that a lot of those disappeared in subsequent storms?
these days hard ultra-highballs are a dime a dozen.
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matty
Trad climber
los arbor
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klk hits it. It is a route called "The Handicapper" that Jeff Johnson put up at the swimming hole (mostly gone now)
Verm describes "the swimming hole" in Stone Crusade (p.88)
"Jeff Johnson and Paul Anderson did the bulk of the development. On several occasions one or the other would go out alone, knowing that breaking a leg would precipitate a Southern California version of Joe Simpson's Touching The Void survival crawl.
A worse scenario almost happened on a solo trip when Anderson snapped the edge off a pocket at the lip of the Sage Boulder. He bounced off another rock ten feet lower, and cartwheeled headfirst into a gap between boulders. The gap fit like a tux. Amazingly he was unscathed; a few feet left or right and his head would have looked like a vandalized jack-o-lantern.
Anderson's close call did not deter Johnson from putting up The Handicapper on a solitary trip. The first few moves up to the three foot roof are fun, then the crux sequence starts. Laid-out moves over a chopping block landing, followed by a coiled-spring-high-step-at-your-chin barndoor lie-back up a vertical arete to a dirt and leaf topout (well) over twenty feet up. If any problem deserves to be called 'the thimble of the 1990's,' this is it."
Read the full description of the swimming hole from of Stone Crusade over at google books
In January 2005 a series of storms hit southern california that flooded the swimming hole and literally swept it away. Hundreds of boulders (some the size of houses) were flipped over and moved hundreds of feet, broken in half, crushed, or just plain disappeared. Too bad i never got to go there before that happened.
The Handicapper is still there, the landing is even better than it used to be, although it's also lower than it used to be. And while there are many highball boulder problem these days, they are generally done in a different style often involving stacked pads, pre-inspection/cleaning and even toprope rehearsal. Johnson (like Gill) put the route up in the best possible style and to me that says something. The swimming hole may be gone, but Johnson has other spots and has put up a ton of hard high-stakes problems. Repeating several of these in that same style has been some of the most rewarding climbing I've ever done.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Of course difficulty alone, or even boldness alone, or the fact
that something is a runout, would not
necessarily qualify a route to be a modern Thimble equivalent.
It would have to do with a lot of factors, the person, the genius,
the technique, the style, the climb in relationship to the time
period, gear used, a whole lot of factors that, with all
due respect, do not seem to be met in any of the climbs mentioned.
I'm too tired at this moment to go into much more detail on the
subject, and again not to offend anyone, but it seems to be
a kind of silly question anyway. It's a little like trying to find
a modern equivalent to one of Da Vinci's masterpieces, and naming
Sydney Pollack, or something... Everything is so different now...
There are no real comparisons... Give the new stars credit for their
own brand of art, hats off to them, leave the great achievements
of the past in their own incomparable light...
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Paco
Trad climber
Montana
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Gill was totally alone, engaging in a private quest, with no expectation of any kind of recognition and barely any vehicle for conveying it. He had nothing even remotely resembling the level of protection enjoyed by modern boulderers, and instead faced not only the hard ground but that guardrail.
not to mention stiff, slick EBs (or something in that neighborhood) on the slick, small crystals of the needles.
edit: like you said...not much of a vehicle.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Very well said, Pat!
The amazing accomplishments of the past are very difficult to relate properly to the amazing accomplishments of the present...
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matty
Trad climber
los arbor
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Pat- No disrespect to Gill or the original thimble intended, and you're right, there really is no way to compare the routes because Gill did The Thimble before anything like it had been done, he broke the mold and everyone since has had his vision to lean on.
I have not climbed on or even see the thimble nor do I know Mr. Gill, so I cannot speak to that matter. However John Sherman has done a ton of bouldering in different areas, has climbed with a slew of talented boulderers, and has a respect for the style in which a climb is done. He knows both Gill and Johnson and has climbed The Thimble, and has at least been to the swimming hole to check out The Handicapper. So I think it is noteworthy when he says "if any route deserves to be called "The Thimble of the 1990's" this (The Handicapper) is it." Sherman's not saying it is equal to the thimble, just that of the one's he's encountered that is the closest. I thought it was a neat side note to the conversation.
Matt
EDIT: Good use of words Tom, very hard to relate the two, but interesting to think about.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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leave the great achievements
of the past in their own incomparable light...
Exactly.
There is no comparison, no "Thimble of the...(whatever)".
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WhiskeyToast
Social climber
Hawaii
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Maybe not, but discussing it sure beats the Politcal/Religious threads that are so common here.
Bump for a climbing / history thread.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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.........it felt special being in the Needles and seeing a small painted arrow pointing the way............made you feel like you were part of history......
Thanks John for posting
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Yeah, I remember visiting the June Lakes boulders and feeling the same way about the little chalk arrow...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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I don't know much about the Thimble except what Gill told me about it shortly afterward in the Tetons. His description then seems to me a little different from what is being said here. I recall he told me about doing a series of one arm mantles on widely separated knobs; reaching up from one to the next. I imagined that this involved dynamic moves. I figured that played very well with his rope climbing gymnastics, and didn't have a lot to do with footwork. But it seems I misunderstood, based upon what Gill has said elsewhere about there not being dynamic moves on this climb.
However I know a little bit about a somewhat similar climb in the same time-frame; below the Tetons on the steep limestone face of Black Tail Butte. Again I am sure I don't know the whole story; and I never saw someone do the complete route. I understood it was first done by Gill and then repeated by Kor and perhaps by Royal.
Fitschen and I went up there once or twice and worked on it with a top rope. I was rather proud of my mountain goat characteristics, and I recall being very impressed by how fast the wiry Joe Fitschen scrambled up the steep scree to the rock wall.
At the time I was solid on 5.9 and pushing into the 5.10 region; sort of an upper standard at the time. This was clearly far short of Gill or Kor, as we found out when we attempted this route. Joe and I were pushing hard at our limits just to get part way up this face. We were very impressed by the quality of the climbing and by the fact that it had been climbed.
The characteristics of that route remind me of a much later route: The East Face of Monkey Face at Smith Rocks.
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NinjaChimp
climber
someplace in-between
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@ Patrick Oliver:
Have you climbed with Fred Nicole, because spending "all-day day(s) at
some problem" does not fit his MO these days. Rather he is known for flawlessly executing moves with minimal rehearsal. In fact I feel like Fred's attitude toward climbing more closely resembles that of John Gill than of any other well-known contemporary climber. His attitude may have been different when he was younger perhaps?
Certainly though your point is not lost. The specialization of climbers has lead to increasingly difficult climbs. Gill was and is one of North Americas finest climbers (people).
-Justin
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Great thread bump.
What about the pre-pads ascent attributed to Greg Collins? Anyone know anything? If true, and onsight--as implied--it would rank with any bouldering ascents of the last several decades. Early repeats of iconic climbs are difficult.
Gill was and is one of our greatest climbers--not boulderers, but climbers. There can't really be a modern-day Gill, or Thimble--by definition. There's not enough open space. But it's worth noting, as others have done here, that very hard boulder problems existed in other parts of the world in the 50s.
Tiresome, continual recounting on ST of how strong someone was in gymnastics, one-arm pullups, etc., however, shows a tremendous lack of understanding of what climbing has become (thanks to what Gill did on rock). I certainly don't think of Gill's strength on bars/rings/wood edges when I think of Gill (though he himself likes to catalog this stuff).
Also, people do extremely risky climbing (Gill's dynamic movement) waay above pads that guarantee nothing. You'd think that gymnasts don't use pads the way some go on here. Maybe try ranting about how some Chinese guy did flips on a granite plaza with no pads in 1450 AD on some gymnastics forum instead.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Tiresome, continual recounting on ST of how strong someone was in gymnastics, one-arm pullups, etc., however, shows a tremendous lack of understanding of what climbing has become (thanks to what Gill did on rock). I certainly don't think of Gill's strength on bars/rings/wood edges when I think of Gill (though he himself likes to catalog this stuff).
Good point. When I quit artistic gymnastics in the mid 1960s, I started doing bodyweight exercises just because they were challenging and appealed to me. They represented a kind of continuum of gymnastics after leaving the gym. Of course, they did give me some strength for climbing, but if I had simply wanted to climb, I would have lost some weight and focused on the sorts of training procedures climbers follow today. I like the muscular stuff, though!
However I know a little bit about a somewhat similar climb in the same time-frame; below the Tetons on the steep limestone face of Black Tail Butte. Again I am sure I don't know the whole story; and I never saw someone do the complete route. I understood it was first done by Gill and then repeated by Kor and perhaps by Royal.
Tom, my recollection is not terribly good, but I do remember hearing about Royal doing a playful top-rope route on the right side of the face, up a fold in the limestone. He even did it with one leg! I wasn't there at the time, but I was told this impressed everyone. I don't recall exactly where Layton's climb went, but I suspect it may have been just to the left of Royal's. I don't think there were any bolts on the face by the end of the 1950s (I could be wrong), but there was some sort of anchor over the top for top-ropes.
I did a couple of routes as free solo exploration, and I think the Blacktail Butte Guide may have it about right: Royal's-#18, Kor's-#17(?). The "bolt route" may have been something I did; I do remember starting straight up about where the guide indicates the route goes, but above that I wandered a bit, possibly where the dotted line goes, but I'm pretty hazy about it. There were no bolts, of course. I think I also did what the guide calls "Raven Crack", #5, and I did something easy and short off to the right of #18. There was some bouldering at the bottom of the wall, but subsequent generations developed that area. [A little editing as the memories drift back]
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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I'm not so sure Gill's amazing strength didn't play a significant role in bouldering as he conceptualized it. Various people who spent time with Gill have mentioned the grace and style that was characteristic of much of his climbing. And Gill himself refers to striving for an esthetic component to his performance, as opposed to simply topping out, or sending, as folks would say now.
Personally, what always struck me about Gill's climbing was the space between him and the rock. Other boulderers would be squished tight up against the face, but Gill would appear to be skimming the surface with finger and toe-tips. Doing things like that looks beautiful, but isn't necessarily technically optimal; Gill's extra strength went into those amazing body positions.
It isn't a matter of right or wrong or better or worse. That was the game that Gill was playing---the game that he was defining, since there was no one else around really in his league until Jim Holloway showed up.
Gill's version of bouldering never really caught on, in his time or subsequently. And this is not to say that other climbers do not look graceful on occasion, but it is a different genre of grace, the gracefulness of competence, not the almost theatrical separation Gill achieved.
I'm not saying that one or the other is better, just that Gill was different, and his strength was, I believe, an integral part of that difference and not just an irrelevant additional fact about an already remarkable man.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Dec 10, 2010 - 01:47am PT
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I'd wager that the type of strength Gill exhibited on the rock benefited from all of the non-climbing exercises (especially due to his size) but was largely developed by exercising his style on the rock. Strengths are so specific. You don't work your toes/ankles/calves much on the rings or bar.
But the man is here and can tell us himself!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 10, 2010 - 01:52am PT
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Rich has an excellent point. The footage of Gill (and Holloway) climbing, in Disciples of Gill, shows him with a very distinct style. One aspect of it being separation of body and rock, for lack of a better descriptor. John and the rock weren't exactly at arm's length, but he certainly didn't look like he was wrestling either. You can always see space between him and the rock.
Does anyone now boulder in such a style?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Dec 10, 2010 - 09:32am PT
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the matter of Gill's particular style is interesting, but it's hard to imagine it was much in evidence on the crux of the Thimble.
No one on Greg Collins' possible ascent?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 10, 2010 - 10:42am PT
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Alex, you may have to walk farther than the couple of miles from Sylvan Lake. i saw on the news the other day they are doing helecopter logging and the road to Sylvan may be closed until Feb.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 10, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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I'm not so sure Gill's amazing strength didn't play a significant role in bouldering as he conceptualized it.
I think that's exactly right, at least on many of the shorter overhanging things where you can approach the problem as if it were a gymnastics routine. Even for those of us who didn't climb with John back in the 50s and 60s, it's very clear from talking to John, breaking down the still photos, and then esp. in the film footage, that his performances were as much about a particular form of movement and a particular kinesthetic experience as they were about problem solving or summiting.
Gymnastics, too, is about more than efficiency. Pointed toes and straight arms aren't actually mechanically efficient. But they produce cleaner visual lines and change the feeling of the motion.
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