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enjoimx
Trad climber
SLO Cal
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So.....it's OK to belay your best friend with the belay loop? But you wouldn't rappel on it because it's not safe enough?
No, I belay through my backup as well.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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At rap stations I'd sometimes remove the rattiest, most weathered sling and then add a new one. Later I tied a bunch of those old crappy slings together to make a tow rope for my car. Thru many years of towing cars (with many high impact bumps) and abuse and poor care and poor storage that mangy tow rope never broke until about the 10th year after a fairly large bump when towing (and even then I tied it back together and continued towing). Even after all of that a belay loop made from a section of the remaining broken wretched tow rope would have a low probability of breaking (the belay loop has 4x the single strand of the tow rope).
No matter how weathered, worn, or abused (except for exposure to acid) , it's hard for me to imagine any webbing in a harness breaking under the low loads of rappelling or even the high loads of a leader fall. Possible cause of a failure: underpaid sweat labor forgot to sew it properly.
Even so I recommend tying on a swami of 1" webbing as a backup to the whole harness. Sometimes you need to undo your primary harness and you can always use some extra webbing in an emergency, esp if that emergency is the failure of your harness.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> No matter how weathered, worn, or abused (except for exposure to acid) , it's hard for me to imagine any webbing in a harness breaking under the low loads of rappelling
Maybe hard to imagine, but it was the badly worn belay loop which failed on Todd while rappelling. So it should not be that hard to imagine.
If you cut through 90% (or even 70%) of the fibers, it does not have the strength that it normally has.
As others have mentioned, I don't think this accident makes a case for backing up a good belay loop. It does make a case for inspecting your gear and backing up a belay loop that you can see is substandard (until you can replace it).
I have an old light harness with a somewhat bad belay loop that I use sometimes when I want to go very light (like on Snake Dike). It's pretty worn where the leg loops intersect as well. Not something I would want to use on a regular basis. I knew I had to put it into semi-retirement after Todd's accident.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Clint, Well noted. I just edited this in :
Even so I recommend tying on a swami of 1" webbing as a backup to the whole harness. Sometimes you need to undo your primary harness and you can always use some extra webbing in an emergency, esp if that emergency is the failure of your harness.
The failure of the belay loop in Todd's accident, though, is still a huge mystery for me as I have yet to see any good explanation of why it failed; but I might have missed the report. After my experience with the tow rope of ratty slings, it seems that even if rats had eaten 1/2 way thru his belay loop; it still should have held up under the low loads of rappelling.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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The reason Todd's belay loop got so worn was that he had a daisy chain girth hitched to it at a fixed location,
which he then weighted repeatedly while working climbs.
This caused the opposite side of the belay loop to rub/wear repeatedly against the leg loop connection, with the wear concentrated on one spot.
I read this somewhere; maybe on the original thread in this forum.
Here's an online version that I found:
http://www.rockandice.com/articles/accidents/article/937-tragedy-on-leaning-tower
"... until four years later, when Todd Skinner and Jim Hewitt fired off the improbable Wet Lycra Nightmare (5.13+ A0), a free version of the old aid line Wet Denim Daydream. Skinner, stoked at having found a free line on the tower, and doubly psyched to have discovered that the wall was more featured than anyone had thought , soon began planning yet another free route up the wall. In 2006, with his partner Hewitt, he began work on the 1992 Eric Kohl and Eric Rasmussen horror show, Jesus Built My Hotrod (VI A4 5.7).
On October 23, after having worked the route off and on for some two weeks, Skinner and Hewitt began rappelling back to the valley floor from ropes fixed off Ahwahnee Ledge, a large bivy platform about 800 feet off the deck. Skinner fixed his Grigri to the rope, clipped to it with a locking biner and began the free-hanging rappel. Hewitt heard a sound, then looked to see Skinner on the ground.
ANALYSIS
Skinner’s Grigri and locking carabiner were found still on the rope. The belay/rappel loop on his harness, to which he had clipped the Grigri, was broken, and was found at the base of the wall a day later. An examination of the belay/rappel loop showed that it had worn nearly through. Prior to the accident, Hewitt and Skinner had noticed the frayed loop, and according to Hewitt, the two were concerned about it.
Wearing through a belay/rappel loop is extremely unusual. Typically, the leg-loop tie-in point is the first part of a harness to wear out, as it is constantly subjected to the nylon-on-nylon sawing action of the rope. The belay/rappel loop usually only sees action from carabiners, which cause nominal wear. In addition, because the belay/rappel loop is a non-redundant and critical component, it is usually sewn in a doubled thickness, making it all the more difficult to wear out.
According to an initial report, Skinner had his daisy chains permanently girth-hitched to the belay/rappel loop, a common set-up for many big wallers. Rigging the daisychains this way prevented the belay/rappel loop from rotating, so every time he weighted a daisy chain, the belay/rappel loop rubbed against the leg-loop strap in the same spot. Over time, and given Skinner’s prolific use, the chafing action simply sawed through the loop."
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wayne burleson
climber
Amherst, MA
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Revisiting old safety threads and starting new somewhat
redundant ones makes sense. Most of us read new stuff rather
than digging through the old. And we need reminders, especially
as we age.
Climbers are notoriously cheap, especially BITD.
Even so far as to compromise their own safety.
Clint mentions how a great part of climbing is doing
your own real-time risk analysis. And this
includes costs as well (weight, replacement cost,
hassle, familiarity, etc.) Clint uses some pretty sketchy
old gear and is one of the most generous people I know,
and I never feel unsafe with him since he's constantly
on the ball.
Coz replaces his gear every year. Do you?
I don't. He's a professional and hence probably (and rightfully)
watches himself more than your average weekender like me.
As I climb less, I am even more reluctant to replace my gear
even though I should.
But wasn't Todd a professional too? In some ways
he was by the amount that he climbed, but in other ways,
he harkened back to an era when top climbers weren't
sponsored and didn't replace gear as often as they should.
Tragic that the reason he died was a result of hanging and
working routes, one of the original reasons he was derided
in the Valley.
I have 4 kids. Todd has 3. Clint has 3.
This changes everything. Safety isn't just your own self anymore.
Replace your gear. And buy it through CMac's sponsors on this
site so he can get a piece of it which he so richly deserves
for maintaining this great forum.
With this post, I'm "digging myself a hole" a la Mr. Hudon so that
now I have to go out and update my gear. Feel free to check in to
see if I followed through...
Thanks to Chris, Clint, Coz, Hudon and the OP.
And Todd RIP. You'll always be one of my heros.
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Scole
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 11, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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I immediately cut the belay loop off of new harnesses. I also back up my harness and use a second belay biner (reversed and opposed)
You are welcome to trust that single point, but don't expect me to.
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wayne burleson
climber
Amherst, MA (currently in Lutry, CH)
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Mar 15, 2011 - 11:09am PT
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Finally bought a new harness, rope and Grigri2 this past weekend.
Prices are outrageous here in Switzerland so we drove to France.
My old harness was probably 20 years old.
My old rope was 7.
I got the Grigri2 so my wife and son don't constantly jam me on clips...
and it seems to help...
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 15, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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just last night I backed up my car.
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