Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Brian
climber
California
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
|
Largely because my opinion is that Red Bull type products in general are more about money and hype than about preservation of tradition & ethics. To me, anyone who has sold their soul to Red Bull has already demonstrated that respecting the tradition & ethics of others is a lower priority to them than is "selling more product". He may as well be climbing for McDonalds or Coca Cola...
Two thumbs up.
Make that three... er, four...?
Whatever, I second what Tami seconded about what The user formerly known as stizzo said about what Lama did to cause Rolo to do what he did!
What a fecking fiasco. Thanks to Rolo and others who are trying to keep those routes wild.
Brian
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:17am PT
|
Quoth Lama:For the guides it was of course the most important thing to guarantee the safety of the crew. Beyond that it was of great importance to me that other climbers in the route would not be disturbed by the production and that the mountain would be strained as minimally as possible.
It appeared to our lead guide as the most reasonable solution to install a line of fixed ropes aside of the route from the high point down to the bottom of Col de la Patiencia. To make this possible, twelve bolts were added above, fourteen beneath the Col, many of them far away from the actual route. The existing rapelling line down from the shoulder was too dangerous due to falling ice.
The most important demand on ourselves though was to leave the mountain as we found it after finishing the production. Already during our attempts old ropes abandoned by other climbers were cleaned out of the route and carried out of the valley, just like we had planned to do with our own gear after the production. We had been expecting loads of bad weather during our stay but certainly not snowfalls that would hinder us to make it onto the Col for over a month. Therefore we carried out the gear we had left at Nipo Nino before departing earlier than we had planned. But even before we left, local guides were engaged to remove the fixed ropes and the things we had left on the Col, as soon as the weather conditions would allow it. A haulbag and the bolts had to be left, but they will for sure be removed in the next austral summer.
The critique coming from the climbing scene for sure didn’t leave us cold. Cleanly removing bolts and not placing them at all are two different things. The critique made me think a lot and I must admit that most of all the conversations with friends of mine that are alpinists sharpened my view on some things.
It’s true that there are cracks and rock structures in which natural gear could have been placed for fixing the ropes. It’s also a fact that the camera guys could have jumared up on these natural placements. But all of this is fairly easy to say if you are not the person in charge of the lives of the people hauling themselves up on these placements after a huge storm… I certainly don’t want to carry this responsibility, and in that respect I understand our lead guides decision in placing a limited number of bolts.
Aside of the bolts, for many the controversy starts already with the question, if productions should even be made on such a mountain. This is a question where opinions differ widely. Film projects and photo shoots will always be a part of professional climbing and therefore also a part of my life. For my project on Cerro Torre I drew my consequences from the critique and decided together with Red Bull to change the production strategy, so no more bolts would need to be added. This decision will have an effect on the production quality, but I’m glad that Red Bull stands by me for that. Should it turn out though that under these new circumstances the film project would be abandoned, my plans on returning to Cerro Torre and trying to free the compressor route would remain the same…
Good job on the cleanup.
Plenty of awesome, beautiful climbing films have been made without creating bolted safety zones. It just shows a monumental lack of creativity on behalf of the guides and the camera crew. What a bunch of pussies. I'm sure there are qualified film crews experienced in this sort of filming that could create a nice film, without leaving such a messy footprint.
Safety? More like convenience. It really seems like the decision to start bolting came from the lead guide?... and Lama said "OK...whatever". Perhaps more of the anger should be directed where it is actually due. I feel a little for Lama. He allowed the corporate monster and it's minions to run the show and obviously failed to divine the larger ramifications. Hopefully in the future he'll have the guts to put his foot down now that he's had a bit of a wake up call.
Red Bull.. I hate the stuff anyhow. Never buy it.
PS: Lama actually reports adding 26 bolts ("twelve bolts were added above, fourteen beneath the Col,)"... not 14. Still possibly incorrect (?) according to witness account.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:25am PT
|
"I'm gonna free climb Cerro Torre!....with a big ass line of bolts for my film crew..." Really pushing the envelope there.
Pretty impressive to get a German mag editor on this thread.
|
|
e9climbing.blogspot.com
Mountain climber
Alps
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
|
One thing. I'm not so sure the witch hunt on the Guide from Austria is right. He did what he was told to do in order to ensure safety for the film crew.
I guess Lama should step up and say "I was team leader and I'm responsible, it was my project and the Guide just did what he was told in order to document my assent".
I wrote down some comments on my blog if any one is interested.
http://e9climbing.blogspot.com/2010/11/in-sharp-contrast-el-cap-and-cerro.html
|
|
heinz
Sport climber
italy
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
|
bravo Rolo!!!
|
|
Luca Signorelli
Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
|
Well done Rolo, both for setting the record straight on the bolts and for the actual chipping. You're da man! Cheers from Italy.
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
|
Below is a response from RedBull to an email I sent them a few days ago when this thread started.
Hi Terry,
Thanks for sending us your concern.
Due to bad weather, the production had to be stopped and is currently on hold whilst waiting for the next Patagonian summer.
Red Bull takes the protection of nature and security of human lives very seriously, and has a long history in producing high quality productions in extreme circumstances and exposed areas. The entire shoulder and wall has been cleaned of not only our, but also older material which was found. Only one haul bag and 30 bolts remain, set only aside the main climbing route necessary for the production crew due to falling ice on the original track. The whole endeavor and every step was planned and executed in close accordance with the local administration of Parque Nacional Los Glaciares. After completion of the project these parts will also be entirely removed.
If you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to give us a call at 1(877)673-9444.
Thanks and regards,
Emily
Red Bull
http://www.redbullusa.com
Your comment:
Hi Redbull,
I'm a rock climber/mountaineer and I've been reading about Austrian climber David Lama, who Redbull sponsored on a climb of Cerro Torre in Patagonia. Lama's team drilled a LOT of holes in the rock to make the film, which destroys the rock and is not necessary. Recently a well known Patagonia climber, Rolando Garibotti went up on the climb that Lama attempted and cleaned up a lot of the mess that Lama left behind. Garibotti also reports that there were a LOT more bolts placed than Lama claimed. Lama's statement is the bolts were needed for safety for the film crew but most climbers feel that destroying a famous climb like this is NOT worth it, and that it was not even necessary. Its a total travesty that Redbull supports this kind of bad ethics. Lama is like a spoiled punk kid who does what he wants, without consequence. He should be banned from Patagonia completely. If Redbull continues to sponsor Lama and his climbs, I plan to boycott Redbull's products for as long as I live. Lama is planning on returning to Patagonia. Redbull - please don't have any part of this. For more info on what Rolando Garibotti discovered and states, please see his online post (the 1st one) at http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1319502/Bolts-chopped-on-Cerro-Torre
Thank you,
Terry Erickson
(edit - my email is not the best. written as I was rushing trying to get out the door on time to work)
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
|
Tami, it is not a pesonal attack to call soemone out for doing inappropriate bolting just so they can make a film and money for themselves while ignoring the traditional ethics of the area they are climbing in. I live in a area that has extremes on both sides. An extremely traditional area, the needles, and an area where virtually everything was put up on rappel with a bosch. I have put in routes both ways, but I differ to the local ethics at the given area. For the most part the rock being rap bolted was not climbed in the old days because the limestone had lots of loose rock and could not be protected conventionally and no one cared if we cleaned up the loose stuff and bolted on rappel and it has led to some nice routes. On the other hand the neddles it is defianately a ground up hand bolting only area by ethics and no power drills by law I believe. The other major climbing destination in the area is Devil's Tower and you can no longer put in bolts by law. it is a fact though that at Devil's tower ther is two belay bolts at the end of every pitch which make the place much more convienient to climb at and lead to a lot more use on those pitches as someone can easily bail. That being siad if the bolts only at the normal belays that are traditionally fixed tat I doubt there would be much controversy. This does not sound like the case and bolts were added mid pitch according to what has been written above. Then to leave a mess, lie or at least minimize what has been left and added and to act like you are doing society a favor by making a film is what put it over the top for me. The guide and the climber should both know better and if they did not at least admit to what you did do with honesty.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
|
Bolts chopped on Cerro Torre
Thanks, it has a much better ring than, "Bolts clipped on Cerro Torre".
|
|
bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
|
I received a response from RedBull today. Exactly the same as Terry. Seems they do not recognize their responsibility for the bolting action.
The tone of the note indicates this is just a normal part of doing business RedBull style
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for sending us your concern.
Due to bad weather, the production had to be stopped and is currently on hold whilst waiting for the next Patagonian summer.
Red Bull takes the protection of nature and security of human lives very seriously, and has a long history in producing high quality productions in extreme circumstances and exposed areas. The entire shoulder and wall has been cleaned of not only our, but also older material which was found. Only one haul bag and 30 bolts remain, set only aside the main climbing route necessary for the production crew due to falling ice on the original track. The whole endeavor and every step was planned and executed in close accordance with the local administration of Parque Nacional Los Glaciares. After completion of the project these parts will also be entirely removed.
If you have further questions or concerns, feel free to give us a call at 1(877)673-9444.
Thanks and regards,
Emily
Red Bull
http://www.redbullusa.com
Edit:
I think a guy like Donnini has to call out other Red Bullshit sponsored climbing atheletes about their position on this. Silence is the slippery slope to dammnation here.
Red Bull will continue to do as it see's fit to promote its product, till such actions become Negative Publicity.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
|
After writing Red Bull as many others have here, I got the same response---verbatim---from them. Expected of course but I have to imagine they will be working a bit harder to either conceal or improve tactics. Everything is dialectical, you know. If you don't push back, you get walked on.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
|
Remember, Red Bull isn't a climbing company. The people and/or machines that responded to our emails with a form letter probably don't really understand that what is happening is not cool, and almost certainly have no comprehension about bolting ethics.
They've been fed the line, and they're responding accordingly. They're also not admitting very much wrongdoing if any, and don't offer any apology.
How do we help them understand mountaineering ethics, what's cool and what isn't, that their boys really crossed the line in a big time bad way, that it makes their company look bad, that what has been told to them is not entirely true, and that physical corrections need to be made?
From the sounds of their letter, they seem to think that they can fix everything just by going back and pulling off a haulbag and some ropes - do they know how difficult it is to remove bolts? Do they understand that it is beyond not cool to place convenient bolts next to natural cracks? From their response it sounds as though they think you can just go up and simply "remove" everything. Do they have any comprehension of the magnitude of the travesty?
Most notably, they appear determined to send back the original team to "complete" the project. Now what?
Keep those cards and letters coming! Wake 'em up. Spread the word to other websites.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
|
I think the crux of the argument is that they want to protect human life as one of their arguments to justify their actions. The very reason that many of us don't go to places like this is we are risking our ass if we do. It is part of what makes these places exciting or cool, but if we lower the bar just as the compressor route and the red bull crew did we are greatly reducing the places that few people can get to. There are route in my back yard that I am quite sure I will never do just because the protection is not adequate, but I feel that if I am dedicated enough I might be able to knock off a few such as Vertigo or Superpin. On the other hand it will not take long for the most popular and iconic of these places to no longer have a special place if we allow them to be lowered to the lowest common demominator. I am sure that the Conn's, Wiesner, Kor, Robins, Gill, Kamps, Pratt, Bachar, ect., ect., ect. could have climbed just as hard of numbers as the Lama's of today if they had a bolt every 10 feet, but I doubt that Lama or most of the rest of us could climb as hard as they did with the gear that they had at their disposal. If you think you can they still make hexes and pitons and I am sure locker and cosmic can help you find a few bongs.
|
|
rolo
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2010 - 12:01am PT
|
Thanks so much for the support.
A couple of clarifications regarding some questions that folks have:
By "chopped" I mean that there is nothing left, no stud outside or other. To Heli’s credit, he was kind enough to drill them “long”. This made the job relatively easy, except for getting up there.
I have a few photos, but haven’t been able to upload them because the internet connection from El Chalten is quite bad. I will try to do that tonight.
I exchanged a few emails with the park service here in Chalten, and with the park superintendent in Calafate even before Red Bull showed up last year and in short they dont feel that climbing ethics is any of their business. The park gets paid good money for the filming permit and that is all they seem to care about (at least the superintendent in Calafate). I plan to send them a “official” printed letter explaining what I have done and why. May be that will result in a reaction. They dont mean bad, they just dont have enough info, nor climbers in their personnel to make an educated decision.
Regarding the comparison to Caldwell and Jorgeson, the bolts added on Cerro Torre are on 5.4 to 5.10 pitches, where perfect natural pro is available everywhere. The Torre bolts don’t serve the purpose of advancing the sport, they serve the purpose of filming a docummercial to promote a brand.
Yes, there is tat in many places, but we can do something about that without having to resort to bolts. It is a different problem that needs addressing but that does not relate.
Perhaps I should not have disclosed the name of the guide, but since the last go around he refused to apologize and admit any mistakes, and since he plainly lied to Will Gadd, I figure there was no need anymore to keep his cover.
and no, it is not a troll.
|
|
Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
|
|
|
Nov 19, 2010 - 12:03am PT
|
Good on ya' Rolo!
It is time to take a stand!
Thor
|
|
rolo
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2010 - 01:21am PT
|
one photo, another one coming
|
|
mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Nov 19, 2010 - 01:32am PT
|
Well, since everyone (myself included) is getting the same automatic e-mail, verbatim, it's clearly time to elevate the complaint to higher levels in the company. The publicity folks simply do not see that anything that was done was wrong in the slightest, and they never will. But that being the case, the only effective means is going to be to try to educate them that it's bad marketing and will lose them sales, not gain them. I do not know how to quickly find out who is CEO for Red Bull USA, or worldwide, but that's where we need to be going, and getting AAC, UIAA, and others to weigh in.
And keep bumping this up.
|
|
rolo
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2010 - 01:37am PT
|
one more example, this before "chopping"
|
|
rolo
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2010 - 01:44am PT
|
Regarding the cookie cutter responses folks are getting from Red Bull USA, according to an anonymous source the person responsible for the project was/is
Susanne Degn
susanne.degn@at.redbullmediahouse.com
Red Bull Media House GmbH
Oberst-Lepperdinger-Strasse 11
5071 Wals bei Salzburg
Austria
phone: +43.662.2240-0 (reception desk)
|
|
e9climbing.blogspot.com
Mountain climber
Alps
|
|
|
Nov 19, 2010 - 03:41am PT
|
Rolo
I admire your effort and I respect what you have done and I think it was a great initiative! I agree 100 per cent with you that what Caldwel/ Jorgeson is doing is pushing climbing limits forward, thats exactly my point. If I was unclear I apologize.
This bolts is kind of a rape. And I understand your reasons for publishing the name of the Guide better now. I just don't think he should be the center of attention since I think the easy way out for both Red Bull and Lama would be to make him the scape goat.
David
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!