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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:23am PT
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Somehow the wolves managed to live OK with deer, elk, moose and bison before white folks came along. And still do in parts of Alaska and Canada.
It's the cattle and sheep that are the real issue here, along with the hunters that want lots of easy to kill deer and elk.
You can post lots of charts showing decline of deer and elk since wolves were re-introduced, but those are kind of meaningless unless you also have those numbers from the 1600's when there were natural wolves in the environment and fewer white folks.
We can decide that we don't want wolves, and do want those other species, but let's not pretend that the wolves weren't there first.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 10:44am PT
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To all the "environmentalists" postin here on the side of the wolves: I'm much more of a true environmentalist than you ever could conceive of being, 'cause I consider myself a true steward of the wildlife on my ranch. In the spring, I get to see the does with their new fawns (both species of deer--whitetail and mule, as well as pronghorn antelope) frequently cow elk with new calves, as well as all my new calves raised by me on the ranch. I take predation on all above very personally, and shoot coyotes or other predators ON SIGHT. Yes, this sometimes includes domestic dogs that city dwellers "drop off" out here to get rid of...
I allow hunting by very limited numbers of hunters in the fall, just to have some income; I no longer hunt personally. I hunted as a younger man strictly from economic necessity, to feed a wife and 2 young children. So...I live here alone on the ranch, feeding the wild turkeys every morning, keeping my eyes open for "intrusive species." Well. all you faux environmentalists, MATCH THAT.
I'm NOT atypical, by the way, as most other ranchers/neighbors feel the same way. (Yeah, they feed wildlife, too.)
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 14, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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Die hard hunter, not really an environmentalist. butcher my own game, work with birds of prey, dispatch what they catch with my own hands. brutal work, but it gets done. I've worked on dairy farms, castrated calves, shot car-hit whitetail deer, hunted them with bows and rifles. shot at wild dogs running sheep in west virginia when i've been there hunting. no sierra club bullshit here.
having worked with birds of prey, including stints at rehab centers, i've seen more than a few dead hawks, shot by farmers supposedly protecting their stock. the dreaded chicken hawk, which usually turns out to be a redtail that happened to be sitting in a tree at the wrong time when said marksman was about. They killed hawks by the thousands during their migration back in the day. they were vermin, according to the books. According to the mandates of an uneducated public that is. maybe the wolf doesnt have a place according to some, but don't tell me they weren't here, in the lower 48, in great numbers, before whitey came along.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Rokjox-
Let's go import some Siberian Wolves for those beautiful parks in LA and SF! They can feast on the homeless living in cardboard boxes....
;)
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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Ahhhhh!
To quote Jack Lemmon in Grumpier Old Men, "Let the games begin!"
C'mon, RJ, your shot...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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Give 'em enough rope...
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Do you guys have PBS up there?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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I wonder if the reintroduction of Pate to the ST habitat will have any parallels?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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What Rox said, sis; republican need to control, issues....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
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Lois-
The problem is one of "the wolves don't give a $hit" about YOUR rights. They are not respecters of No Trespassing signs. They've come ON TO MY LAND and then KILLED MY ANIMALS! Yet current Federal Law prohibits me from killing them unless they are caught in the act of killing my livestock!
And if I do kill one, then I'm guilty 'till proved innocent, from their perspective.
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LED
Social climber
the great beyond
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Nov 14, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
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LED
Social climber
the great beyond
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Nov 14, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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Lois-
You need to get a solar charger for your electric fence. Better yet, replace it with what I use: good ol' fashioned barbed wire.
There are certain legalities here: Wyoming law states, if you don't want the neighbor's animals on your land, it's your responsibility to fence them out with a "legal fence" ( that's 4 strands of barbed wire, and posts 1 rod apart, 1 rod = 16.5 feet). That's why Wyoming is called a "fence-out" state. Other more civilized states back East are called "fence-in" states for obvious reasons. This is a holdover from the old days of the cattle barons and open range; an effort to get rid of the "sod busters."
Trust me on this one; I spend more time getting other people's cows off my place than they ever do on the reverse. There's an old saying: Good fences make good neighbors.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
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AC-
It's hard to teach the dead to read...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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AC-
Yes the "triple S" method is still practiced widely, yet today.
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LED
Social climber
the great beyond
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Nov 14, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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Lois-
You should be getting 50% of the hay he puts up; that's the standard deal across the west. You grow it on your land, he gets to keep half for cutting and baling.
You really dont want any wolves in Pennsylvania; the deer would soon be gone; your dogs would soon be gone; your kitty cats would soon be gone; your pesky neighbors would soon be gone; wolves can swim, and you'd be gone too.
By the way, I have to fence-in about 1,700 acres and maintain these fences against elk damage. Your place would only take about 16 rolls of barbed wire, plus posts and gates; a good fence crew could do that in about 2 days. Figure about $5K, with all the work done to a professional standard.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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AC-
Pretty misleading referring to the southern tier of elk habitat. Noticably absent the figures of NW Wyoming. Yes. I can have sometimes upwards of 650-700 elk on the ranch at various times. This is a huge increase in the SE Wyoming herd population of the Laramie range. Although I "feed" these elk, I don't really givva Schitt. In another year or 2, the Colorado and Montana figures will start reflecting the wolf predation.
Remember, this is from a fund raising effort, patting itself on the back...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
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Lois-
I do not, nor ever have had ANY issues with deer, antelope, or elk. They are part of the ranch life, as are the wild turkeys, Hungarian partridges, and sage grouse. I don't like ANY predators killing them. I really restrict hunting, as well. My cattle are my wife's "hobby" herd. I keep her favorites to enable myself to take pictures and send them to her in the nursing home. She has Huntington's Chorea, but is still capable of enjoying her animals in a vicarious manner.
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