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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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I agree 100% on the 1/4 spike bolt, very hard to remove.
Never placed one though. Would love to see one of those pulled.
SAL-
I will buy those SS SMC hangers, what size hole? Buttons or threaded?
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Those SMC hangers have a 1/4in hole. Buttonheads wont work, which is why I want to see the spike bolts tested, among other reasons.
If it turns out I can't use them for anything, you can have em'. I'm not placing 1/4 in wedge bolts for lead anchors (just don't trust them) and I don't think I'd use them on a bolt ladder, so....
Whatcha gonna use em fer?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Drill em out and use them on the lead.
Are they the fat ones, 3rd generation? I placed a 1" buttonhead with one of those fat SMC SS hangers, Fully bomber. I would kill to get a bunch of those with the 5/16ths hole.
The 1/4 inch hole SMC hangers that are black oxide are a newer generation as well, highly coveted by the 1/4" driller.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Yeah, newer generation fatties. Those hangers are bomber, you just can't push a 1/4in buttonhead through that 1/4in hole. Spikes will work though. I was thinking about drillin em out. No vice or drill press though.
Got em off Back in Black at Sugarloaf when I replaced the bolts.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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I can drill them for you, just let me know.
That combo (1/4" x 1.25") w/ SS Smc is the best on lead.
Banquo- give us a list of what you want to test, I have loads of 1/4 gear, along with some very weird expansion bolts.
1/4" Spike bolt
Threaded 1/4 split shaft
Short buttonheads
Wedge and expansion
star drives :O
We should just have a shop day, I will bring the beer.
Mucci
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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I got some new 1/4" drill bits in the mail yesterday. Don't be sending me boxes of junk to test, I have enough stuff lined up to test for now. As far as costs go, the equipment is the expensive part. I'll be checking the front porch to see if anybody has donated a battery powered hammer drill or perhaps a couple of these:
http://www.futek.com/product.aspx?t=instrument&m=usb210
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mucci, double drilling in the death spike chimney?
HAHAHA!! You have a good memory BES...
No drilling but that biner link is pretty cool.
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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My machinist friend was going to make a base for the 10 kip load cell but has now said he can't get to it - he is going in for back surgery and will be laid up. So, I'm limited to 5 kips until I can get one of these made:
http://fci.thomasnet-navigator.com/ACOTemp/Geomstore/20101104-183526-21628295.pdf
Think I'll call the company and see what they cost first, I'm guessing $100.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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If you get stuck Banquo I could whip that up fairly easily. I'm not exactly local to you though, but oddly only 2 miles from the company the blueprint you linked is located (West Conshohocken, PA).
BTW, I sent you a PM a while back about gear testing and just realized yesterday that the email in my ST profile was no good. It's fixed now, so let me know if you're interested (or have no idea what I'm talking about).
-aric.
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2010 - 01:08am PT
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I stayed a bit late tonight and turned out the piece in the lathe while the tech wasn't watching his shop. I'm about half done making it myself so no problems with that. Turned the disc and got the center hole drilled and tapped. Been a long time since I pretended to be a machinist. Weird thing is I've spent about about as much time doing this as I spent talking to the other guy about it. Just do it often seems the best option. That's why I don't have employees ... I can probably do most things in less time than I can splain it to some other bonehead.
I can measure drop forces but somebody needs to find a 50' drop which is harder to find than you might think. Somebody needs to donate ropes, etc. Also need to predict forces, frequencies, etc. so we can have the right instrumentation. The object you drop is important too, an iron pig will get different results than a sack of meat. Meat sack natural frequency is probably 10 Hz or less - I can easily document to 10 kHz.
adatesman - I responded to something about a test data website archive but didn't hear back so sh#t canned everything. I give up pretty fast on such things. I hope somebody archives my data because I don't.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Yeah, newer generation fatties. Those hangers are bomber, you just can't push a 1/4in buttonhead through that 1/4in hole. You don't need to drill them out - just take a rattail file and a minute or two for each hanger. Easy to do at camp too. I make the holes into oval shaped slightly-less-than 5/16", with the long ends to the sides so there's less play up and down, works great. Check with a buttonhead to make sure you don't oversize the hole - and if you have various buttonheads (eg 1.25 and 1.5"), check with one of each since they aren't always the same width.
If you do use a rattail file, it can help to use vice grips to grab the hanger since there's not much to grab with your fingers.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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As Greg suggested, use a file to slightly enlarge the hole. A tip from Paul Piana, files for sharpening the chains on chain saws are pretty cheap and work great.
Bruce
ps- I rebolted an anchor in Boulder Canyon that used 1/4" Rawl spike bolts. The rock was granite and the holding power appeared to be about the same as a split shaft.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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The 1/4" spikes that pulled SUPER easy were the stainless ones, Minerals was looking into those as possible stainless replaceable rivets for walls.
But I wouldn't trust spikes in general since they would be sketchy if the rock got even slightly grainy - I pulled a 3/8" one by hand in grainy Joshua Tree rock.
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Banquo,
That site you linked up thread should be called FUKET for $500.00 USB210 external kit! That is a lot of drills and bolts, man! Keep up the good work, we place bolts to save our butts and don't always know exactly how they preform in the real world! Insightful testing is the key!
Thanks,
Thor
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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I did two pullout tests. The first a 1/4" coil bolt Greg Barnes sent and the second a 1/4" SS wedge bolt Cragnshag gave me.
I drilled a 1/4" hole and screwed the coil bolt in but it stopped before it snugged up. I decided to keep going and see what would happen - probably exceeding the 10 ft-lb installation torque. It just turned in the hole but didn't tighten up. It had stopped when the shoulder where the threads end reached the rock face and about 3/8" short of being tight. I thought about what to do and decided that if I was climbing, had to use it and this happened, I would just pound it in so I did that. It pulled out at 1060 pounds. When I screwed it in. the coil had stayed near the face of the rock and jammed against the shoulder. I think these bolts would work better in concrete which is no where near as strong as my granite.
The hole being undamaged, I knocked in a 1/4" SS wedge bolt and snugged it up. The wedge was below where the coil ended up in the previous test so I felt it was essentially in a virgin hole. This one snapped at the threads at 3460 pounds. The net section at the threads must be smaller than the net section at the wedge or maybe the stress concentration is higher at the threads. Still, 3460 lb is an impressive result.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 11, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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Cool Banquo, that's the sort of thing that is really important for climbing - messing up the installation completely!
I got those coil bolts from Norman Boles, but I haven't tried any since they are even longer than long 1/4". Hopefully Norman will chime in if he got a chance to try any of them.
That's an amazingly high result on the stainless stud bolt. Of course no one tries 1/4" bolts in pure pull-out (unless someone uses them for horizontal roof bolt ladders), but still...
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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Greg-
Well, I'm not so sure I messed up the coil bolt installation. I drilled a very nice, clean, straight, deep, 1/4" hole with a brand new drill, the bolt simply wouldn't go all the way into it. I am a bit puzzled about how they expect the coil to work. Is it supposed to stay near the tip of the bolt or near the surface? It seems odd that the bolt is so long if the coil is going to end up at the top of the threads which means the bolt only contacts the sides of the hole near the surface. What got stuck was the little tab that sticks up from the top end of the coil, it ended up pressed against the shank above the threads.
A coil might be a useful design as a temporary connection used with a permanent adhesive.
As far as messing up goes, when the SS bolt popped, the rig fell apart and knocked the digital display off the work bench. It landed on the floor and seems to be dead now. Omega DP41-S list price $545 plus shipping and tax. Ouch! Oh well, spilled milk. I'll go through my junk boxes and see if I have a signal conditioner I can use with a voltmeter for a display. The good news is that the 12 year old unit didn't cost me anything in the first place as it was given to me by a colleague who retired. Don't think I'll replace it though. I see one on ebay today for $499 WTF are people thinking?
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 11, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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You have totally ruined that nice granite block. I hope you plan on patching all those holes when you're done.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 11, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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Maybe the hole needs to be 17/64" if it's in good granite (instead of concrete). That's the size HSS bit that you use with 1/4" buttonheads. Those seem to drill the same size hole that hand-drilled 1/4" SDS bits produce. But I'd check the Hilti coil tech docs first...
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2010 - 08:57am PT
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I see the problem, the Hilti installation instructions do call for a 1/4" bit but also say that the minimum fixture thickness is 5/8". Somehow I missed that when I looked at it before the test. I guess that means you would have to enlarge the top part of the hole to use them. A stack of washers would work but I don't like the idea.
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