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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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I don't think the signs would change anyone's behavior and I believe they would be vandalized pretty quickly.
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OR
Trad climber
VT
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Oct 26, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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Nice work Mark. Now explain to me why people would leave fixed powerpoints on a route? Seems silly no?
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Mr. Rogers
climber
The Land of Make-Believe
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Oct 26, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
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I wonder when the power-points and the water were left?
I did the Shield during the first week of September of this year. Yes, there were water bottles at Mammoth, but I think that was it for the remainder of the route (at least until the tree at the top). I don't recall any at Chieftain or Chickenhead. I admit, there could have been one or two, but not enough so that I remember now sitting at my desk. And I'm sure there weren't any pre-made power-points at the belays. So it all went in sometime in the past month or two.
Of course, someone had taken a dump on Chieftan, which was mostly dried by the time we got there. What really blew my mind was not just that they did it, but that they then covered it with a smallish rock. Smooth move genius. Leave a dump on the ledge, and then slow down the drying-out process.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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F*#k putting signs up on el cap, I go there to get away from signs.
^^^THIS
There is a sign on the trail up to the base, good enough. If someone is gunna litter, a sign ain't gunna stop them.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 26, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Maybe Ansel Evans can borrow a big laser from the Air Force, and mount his telescope to it. When he sees someone littering on El Cap, he could burn a big scarlet letter "L" into their back.
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Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light
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Oct 27, 2010 - 12:43am PT
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During a recent bail off of the Salathe, I carried off aver 15 water bottles off of hollow flake ledge as well as countless bits of micro trash and cigarette butts.
the worst was a bottle of putrid piss that someone LEFT ON THE FUKING LEDGE. Seriously, why would you piss in a bottle and leave it for someone else to clean up?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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Given that it's so easy to get to the top of El Cap these days (and it's dang beautiful up there too!), it could (and should) become as common to go up there for a garbage sweep as sweeping the bottom of the cliff use to be (when the problem of trash at the base was much worse).
Given that jugging to Heart/Hollow Flake/Mammoth is so easy, maybe those areas should be considered in the general litter patrol also.
Maybe when someone is marching back across the Bridge with haul bags, just down from EC, maybe a standard comment, after "good job" should be "how much garbage did you bring down from the top, or from route"? We should make doing it a badge of Honor.
Sitting around at the Bridge with Tom and your buddies drinking Cobras is fun and relaxing but spending a day up top, cleaning it up, is rewarding for a lifetime! Maybe every trip to the Valley should not be complete without a garbage sweep on to or Heart/Hollow Flake/Mammoth.
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ericb
climber
CA
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Great discussion on this thread. I think what you hit on in your last post is what it's all about Mark. If we could bring this into the realm of standard climbing discussions, rather than its current taboo status, then I think we could start to see people taking more responsibility for trash.
As climbers we are extremely used to talking to each other. If we could see issues like this brought up while exchanging beta and stories, it would have real effect on the cliff. Local climbers decide the global image and ethics of Yosemite. The park service does not; it can try to enforce and try to remedy but it does not have same sway that the climbing community does by establishing ethics, which do much more on the front end than any NPS cleanup can do after.
It's great to see Mark start this conversation even before I could get our nose cleanup TR out. (I'm posting it right now) I really think this is a problem that can be solved, not some mythical infinite issue.
Eric
Yosemite Climbing Ranger
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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What kind of setup does Jesse have at the Sunday morning coffees? He could have pictures of the crap and signs and slogans and things. Or is it way more low key than that.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Maybe when someone is marching back across the Bridge with haul bags, just down from EC, maybe a standard comment, after "good job" should be "how much garbage did you bring down from the top, or from route"? We should make doing it a badge of Honor. Maybe Tom E could ask them, and take photos. For positive reinforcement, just posting photos of those who should and do have a reasonable haul of garbage - there are routes, parties, and tactics that won't lead to that result. But for some, they'll proudly report into Tom with their goodies.
I plan to hang out on the east ledges, selling high-volume, low-mass garbage, at very reasonable prices. Working for FatTrad.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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It’s like Disneyland most clean up but some do not. They just dump on the wall, get on the plane and go home. If you take it up bring it down. Can’t say I have done it at all times. But this sh#t is off the charts close the big wall for clean up! BOOOOO then clean up as you go!
Bye Dog-T
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jstan
climber
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http://www.translucency.com/frede/parisproject/garbage1200_1789.html
Parisian Garbage from 1200-1789
The Isle de la Cite, Paris's urban core in 1200 AD, used the Seine to
clean the city. The Seine was also strategically used by industries who
placed themselves along its banks to benefit from the particular chemicals
dumped by their upstream neighbors. The quantities of dumped chemicals
was not in amounts large enough to kill the fish, but it helped purify the
water from the other garbage. Tanners and dyers were often on opposite
sides of the island; skinners, furriers and glovemakers locate themselves
downstream from the dyers to benefit from the dumped alum. Urine and
feces were used industrially in paper-making, dying and making saltpeter,
as a replacement for the scarcer alum, in processes requiring humidity
and fermentation. What Andre Guillerme refers to as the "fungal economy"
lasted until the 18th century. The richness of the city could be measured by
its stench.
Phillipe Auguste (1180-1223) established the royal gallows of Montfaucon
north of Paris, serving not only as the gallows but also the town dump.
Thousands of people were hung there; those that died while being tortured
were left hanging to rot until their bones fell. Their remains would then be
dumped into a pit along with the household waste, excrements and rubble.
Like the Christian denial of burial to criminals, the smell that emanated
down to Paris served as a subtle deterrent to crime. This practice also
continued well into the 18th Century. Parent-Duchatelet, the early 19th
Century hygienist, refers to Montfaucon as the "Epicenter of Stench."
The long periods of war from the 14th to the 17th century limited the
physical expansion of Paris to its fortifications. The accumulation of refuse
in the streets reached the point that in 1348 Phillipe VI de Valois passed
an ordinance requiring the citizens to sweep in front of their doors and to
transport their garbage to dumps or risk fines and imprisonment. He
established the first corp of sanitation workers to clean the streets. Even
with ordinances issued every few years, these brought little relief and
were difficult to enforce. Garbage piled up in the streets, making some
completely inaccessible. Finally in desperation, the King made Nobility
set an example, and people began to follow the orders, (but now they
dumped their waste on public property and out of the way places.) In the
15th century, Charles IV created official dumps outside the city walls, with
names like Trou Gaillard and Trou Bernard, but the situation inside the
walls still did not improve much. In the late 16th century, these dumps
became so tall and large that they were fortified, fearing that enemies
would use them to point their canons down on the city.
In 1404, the dumping of garbage in the Seine reached the point that the
authorities threatens to charge the riverains--people making a living by
the river--for cleaning it up. Tanners and butchers were forced to move
downstream as the dumping of carcasses, blood and by-products could
no longer be supported.
Animal excrement, especially from horses, was still present in enormous
quantities in the street, though the mixture of mud and dung was carted
off by the street cleaners and used as fertilizer. In 1674, a decree states that
feces must be separated from other wastes at the dump, in order to begin
manufacturing poudrette or human guano--a greasy, powdery, flammable
substance made by open-air fermentation of human sewage. Valued as a
fertilizer, it was toxic to breathe and incredibly foul smelling for miles
around.
With sieges no longer a threat, an intolerance of the smells emanating from
local dumps developed in the Nobility. In 1758, a decree stated that the
future dumps must be outside of Paris. In 1761, Montfaucon moves further
out from the encroaching city and becomes the primary dump for Paris. It
becomes the only dump after 1781. The large-scale production of poudrette
and vast slaughterhouses were also located here. The carcasses found a
convenient home. The estimated 270,000 cubic meters of mud removed
each year from the Parisian streets were destined for Montfaucon and imply
a certain and lingering social disregard for Enlightenment in regards to
hygiene. In fact, an ordinance of 1780 once again forbade people from
throwing water, urine, feces or household garbage out the window.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 13, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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jstan,
"Garbagology" is an interesting study in its right. Archeologists examining ancient Roman garbage dumps discovered that 2,000-year-old garbage still stinks, and "biodegradable" doesn't necessarily mean any time soon!
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 13, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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Climbers used to have roots in the idea( among others) of wilderness. Out of this came an enlightenment concerning environmentalism and a wilderness ethic emerged.
The idea of "wilderness" has many aspects we seem to have forgotten in the Valley, two of which are uncertainty and spontaneity.
Frankly, I think the concept of not littering has more to do with basic politeness in any setting -- rural, urban, indoors or out.
When I started climbing, there were certain mores and social norms of which I was aware before I ever roped up -- things like whether one placed a bolt, over-drove a pin, etc. Until the "leave no trace" ethic becomes so dominant that people face ostracism for violating it, I don't think we'll solve the problem.
John
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