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213
climber
Where the Froude number often >> 1
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Jul 19, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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Don't they say the burned hand teaches best?
For those of you still icing the wounds, it never hurts to learn why the gasoline exploded.
First off, learn to forecast yourself. It is well worth the time taken to learn a little bit about the atmosphere and how to interpret data to be able to understand the NOAA forecasts (if you think they are always wrong, maybe you should learn a lil somethin bout it and see WHY) and alter the large scale forecasts for your particular area of interest.
You hear the word monsoon?
Check out the water vapor imagery from that afternoon. Nice plume evident. Thats what soaked Bertrand and friends.
Have a look at Reno's 5am sounding.
Key features?
GREEN: A negative lifted index (LI is difference between the environmental temperature at 500mb and an air parcels temperature at 500mb if it is lifted dry adiabatically from 1000mb to 500mb); negative values indicate instability because this parcel would be warmer than the surrounding atmosphere and thus want to be lifted further to reduce its temperature (everything wants equilibrium). As a result, air parcels will be positively buoyant and in the presence of a lifting mechanism, in this case, strong surface heating, and moisture (thanks monsoon!) strong convection and thunderstorms can easily occur.
PURPLE: Speaking of moisture, note the PWAT field is not 0, meaning moisture is present in the atmosphere.
BLUE: Add in the fact that there is some CAPE, or convective available potential energy (found in essence by integrating the area where the parcels temp is warmer than the environmental temp) in a place where most often we have none, and you have a recipe for fun times on rock climbs.
Not gonna go into LFC/LCL etc in this rant.
RED: Futhermore, look at the wind barbs to the right of the graph. This shows wind direction at each level in the atmosphere at this point. They fly like arrows from the breaths of Aeolus. In this case, the southerly flow is bringing the monsoonal moisture northward. Zeus will speak today.
Just some fun stuff you can now take with you to the hills.
Long story short, learn a little bout the winds, go pull up free wifi before your climb, and get the goods!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 20, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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donini-
good stuff man
=)
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Jul 20, 2010 - 03:30am PT
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Hi Bertrand I found your cams on the route today.
Do you still want them?
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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Dan, Your act of kindness has made my day. I know the booty rules, and I never felt entitled to my gear once we left it behind.
That said, For the last year and a half I have been running a non-profit company that I am passionate about, and I make essentially zero money. When I lose gear these days I simply cannot afford to replace it. If you would like to give the gear back, I will accept it with happiness.
I know some out there think the honorable thing to do would be to categorically say no. I can understand that, but I don't agree with it. This is now between you and me, and I am grateful to you. I'll message you offline to discuss further. THANKS.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
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Betrand,
Since I haven't seen you in a while, and since both Dan and I live in Menlo,
I'll offer host and photograph the cam/beer exchange at my place!
kev
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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yeah, a happy ending.
can't wait for my first thunderstorm bail. looks fun. ;)
and 213 - I dig the meterological schooling. what's the latest granjero adventure?
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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Sounds great Kev. It'll be at least a 12er for Dan. D, what kind do you like?
Ahh why not.... invite the others on this thread and I'll sponsor up a pony keg, or more if I can afford it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 20, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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Just got thunder stormed off of a sport crag in Ouray. Too bad I can't be there to help with the pony keg.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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donini
As much as we'd love to have your help with the beers,
I believe we can step up!
Betrand,
Sounds like a plan.
Dan,
You in?
kev
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10b4me
Boulder climber
The End Is Near Retirement Home
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Jul 20, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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I experienced a t-storm on a peak near BCS this past saturday. Had to sit it out for about an hour. We started off at 7 in the morning with just a few clouds. I've climbed in the Sierra for over thirty years, and am well aware of the t-storm probablity in July/August. As someone upstream said, if we waited for good weather, we would never pull out the rope.
After driving for five hours, you have to take the gamble.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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I agree with CM. I let the sunk costs factor into my judgement as well, but when there is danger involved (remoteness, uncertain routefinding) I think sometimes it's okay to err on the side of prudence.
Man, it's hard though... it would have sucked to turn back and roll that wheel-less wheelchair of mine all the way back to the road!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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I think it's safe to say that we've all been mid-route in the backcountry when sparks start flying at least once.
Glad to hear you made it out OK, check those forecasts man! It would suck to have a rescue on your conscience.
Here's to beautiful Sierra granite.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Jul 20, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
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Hey guys my name is Vincent and I'm a school teacher here in Menlo Park , Dapper Dan is a product from my favorite movie 'O Brother Where Art Thou' .
I saw those cams on the route and I figured someone must have left them in duress . I'm glad I am able to get them back to you . But I am traveling around a lot with my girlfriend and am not in Menlo much until the school year begins.
A lot of people were quick to slander and sling arrows at Bertrand for getting caught up in a storm and then looking to get his gear back. I say give him a break. If you climb in the mountains enough you get caught in some weather. Glad you're ok Bertrand, way to get down safely on your own.
Vince from Menlo Park
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jul 20, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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very nice Vince!!!
I like to climb under rain too, but I do not like to leave gear
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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I agree with you Cragman.
I am going to spend a couple weeks on the east side in late August with a friend visiting from NY. She hasn't been climbing much this year, so I think we'll try to keep things easy. It would be pretty cool if I could hit you up later for some recommendations.
Vincent, we'll have that party whenever you are back and settled!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 20, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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Nice outcome. It's nice, too, having climbers like Dapper Dan out there in the Sierra and elsewhere- climbing and living and assisting to a new and higher standard.
As an aside-
Yeah, I gathered something from this thread, too. I've learned not be so reactive regarding Cragman, I know he means well, but with statements like "Seems mighty irresponsible" and "Rolling the dice on that day with that forecast not only could have gotten you killed, but endangered the lives of SAR professionals." in a sport featuring conditions with so much slippery slope, gray area judgment calls, innate risks, artfulness, different skill levels, vagaries of all sort, it kinda irked. So in the future I'll do my best and I'll try to remember this thread and do better regarding urges to respond to his calls. As long as he's no juror on a jury deciding a climber's irresponsibility under gray area conditions, what's it matter, no worries.
All's well that ends well.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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As long as he's no juror on a jury deciding a climber's irresponsibility under gray area conditions, no worries.
Sorry man, just jumping into this now, hope you don't mind.
We're all jurors of our peers. Climbing is for the most part unregulated and it's discourse that helps us progress safety, knowledge, and technical skills. I like the idea of this thread, let's keep it civil and we all can learn a thing or two and hopefully save lives.
I've been in a similar situation a couple of times and retreated safely. Let's use this as a case to examine and learn from.
I especially liked the breakdown of wind charts, something really cool I never knew about...
Safe climbing all,
Senor' Ricardo Cabeza-
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Gene
Social climber
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Jul 20, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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Group hug!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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AAAWWWWW!!!!!!
Realistically, though. We all disagree on lots of topics, but climbing is what brought us here.
Can we have some kind of treaty when it comes to things that are on topic?
Cragman, I totally appreciate your SAR knowledge and would like to benefit from it. It just seems like dumbass partisanship ruins what could be a great wealth of information all too often.
I'm as much at fault as you, or anyone else for that matter. However, it seems like we have an amazing group collective, as far as knowledge goes, and we should all put it aside and create a safety thread.
It could be used for questions, constructive critisim(sp), and general insight as far as safe climbing goes.
I'll start it off. I actually have nothing specific I wish to speak about right now, but lets make this thread the full-on safe climbing thread.
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