Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 08:47am PT
|
Some of you are getting me wrong. I started climbing at 12, graduated a year early from high school and thumbed around California, climbing and such at 16.
But trying to circumnavigate the world solo is not the same thing as hanging out in the Valley, Meadows, Castle Crags etc. I am just wondering the wisdom of allowing a 16-year-old to do such a thing. And Reddirt, did I suggest that this young sailor should be "hanging out" as you put it?
|
|
reddirt
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 08:58am PT
|
I'm saying many many many of her age/gender peers hang out as described.
Goooooo Abby!!!
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 09:02am PT
|
Yes go Abby, I will agree with that and wish the best for her. But I still see a TV movie on the horizon (34°6′0″N 118°20′0″W). Cynical? Who me, a journalist and actor? Never.
|
|
xkyczar
Trad climber
denver
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2010 - 09:10am PT
|
That's awesome news!
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 09:39am PT
|
Hey, "Clueless" Chopper, this boat HAS sailed the southern ocean, sucessfully, in professional races.
Why should the designers be held to blame, when the driver didn't have the skill to drive the boat properly and prevent it from getting knocked down?
This boat does NOT have the same rigging that it was built with by those designers, it had been replaced, as it should.
Sorta like blaming Toyata for a car not holding up running into a wall at full speed, repeatedly........
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 10:11am PT
|
Just to bring this full circle, and back to climbing relevance:
--
The International Association of Cape Horners is for sailors who have rounded Cape Horn. The rounding of the Horn will have been part of a non-stop passage under sail of at least 3000 nautical miles. Their course must have passed through the latitude of fifty degrees south both west and east of Cape Horn. More detailed information is available on the Membership pages of this site.
Cape Horn is sometimes called the Mount Everest of sailing. Mount Everest was first climbed on 29th May, 1953. We believe that, since that date, fewer people have qualified for full membership of the IACH than have climbed Mount Everest.
http://www.capehorners.org/
--
Solo Circumnavigators you can count on a couple of hands. So the equivalent, is to send a 16 y/o to climb Mt Everest, solo, unsupported. You help them make the arrangements, pay for everything, see them to the plane, then send them off.
Who wants to defend doing that?
---------------
Abby's boat cost in the ballpark of $500,000 to purchase and outfit. The prep probably cost another $100,000.
http://performance.boatshed.com/open_40_-boat-106633.html
Yeah, right, how could the parents possibly stop her from going? She's not a professional-level sailor, she has a limited number of years of sailing experience. She's never sailed the Southern Ocean. She has the stupidity skillset of a 16 y/o.
And what happened? She couldn't handle the boat in those conditions and it broke. She couldn't do it, she failed.
Who is paying for those commercial boats that have been diverted, for their time? The chartered airliner?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 10:13am PT
|
Woo-hoo! Good news for a change!!!!!!
|
|
Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 10:38am PT
|
Ken sort of beat me to it. I was actually trying to respond to Corniss posts but to be honest just could not bring myself to do it. but since ken brought it up here goes. Corniss, I am a yacht designer and although I did not design Abbys boat I am familiar of the type of design it is. Actually there are several designers here in the U.S. that are trying to promote this type of design as well as other short handed classes as well. If you would have read my brief little bit about the boat you could have possibly determined that the design has a somewhat higher stability range than other boats within its size. In conditions such as Abby was experiencing it was very likely that the boat could lose its mast. The fact that Abby is alive and possibly will do a movie as Patrick seems to think is a direct result that the design incurred less damage than that of a regular production boat and its stability actually prevented a full capsize. If the keel would have been lost then a capsize would have occurred. However as I noted the boat still would have been able to stay afloat. The only way this might not have occurred is if the boat suffered some sort of damage that would have allowed the hull to flood. This particular design is fitted with a higher than normal buoyancy and has a water tight bulkhead in the bow.
Patrick an others a little perspective here. At most Yacht Clubs here in the U. S. and even in Europe many sailors start out at a young age in Junior sailing programs. Here in the U. S. the average age is around 8 so the sailing bug has hit them pretty early on. By their mid teens a few of them go on to compete at the National an even International level. Agreed that not many go on to circumnavigate the globe but no question the desire to do something like that in a few is already there.
In Europe within the short handed racing scene many sailors start out quite young as well. It is not uncommon for a 16 year old over there to have completed some rather long distances. It s somewhat like Auto Racing in which there exists a series of classes and they often progress through each class.
The point is if Abby would not have done it someone either here or over in Europe would have.
Edt. Ken with all due respect your ignorance towards young people and sailing is truly amazing. In the 35 years that I have been involved in sailing I have not seen anything quite like it.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 10:56am PT
|
Rock on Abbey!
(well on the way to be another outdoor adventure epicmaster)
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:08am PT
|
Thanks Dingus, always nice to have praise from the likes of you. ;-)
BTW Dingushead, I am proud to be American, even though I do not live there. But I don't think you would understand, you've got your head up 108.
Hey, is this the first time in all of these years that we have had a dig at each other? As the old Traffic song goes "Light up or leave me alone". I was just merely commenting on the gal's wisdom and that of her parents.
And don't tell me that there is not a "victim" culture in the US. Or are you a victim?
"A milquetoast is a weak, ineffectual or bland person. It is derived from the character Caspar Milquetoast from the 1924 comic strip The Timid Soul."
Yes, it seems you are a victim.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:25am PT
|
I don't think there is a contradiction between preaching self responsibility and blaming the parents.
She is a minor. She isn't old enough by law to enter into a contract.
And Patrick is right about the victim culture.
But we don't have sufficient insight to know whether the parents exercised good judgement or not.
It really depends on the kid. Some are wise beyond their years while some others never grow up.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:36am PT
|
"Edt. Ken with all due respect your ignorance towards young people and sailing is truly amazing. In the 35 years that I have been involved in sailing I have not seen anything quite like it."
Actually, since I'm Commodore of a yacht club, am a professional kids sailing instructor, administrate 4 kids sailing programs, and actually know Abby and Zach, who is more likely to be ignorant about kids, sailing, and this situation? Better stick to designing boats.
Had that mast come down on her head, nothing that I or anyone could say would come close to the guilt that Abby's family would feel, and their lives would be destroyed along with Abby's. Perhaps you've never counseled such a family. I have a number of times.
When an attempt is made to do something thought to be extraordinarily dangerous, that has never been done in the history of the world, and that person dies, and they are a child....someone is at fault.
The results in this case show that Abby was not capable of doing this...she failed. She and her team showed bizarre judgment on her start time, months later than it should have been. When you advocate that people doing this have no thought of the records, I wonder what planet you are on? Why did she not simply postpone this 9 months to far safer weather????? It was the record, stupid. (to paraphrase Clinton)
I am of the school that parents need to be responsible parents for their children FIRST, not their partners, friends, or boosters. Those things may have their places in the relationship, but not the primary place.
But don't worry, the family has another, younger, daughter to offer up to Poseidon. You haven't heard the last of the Sunderlands.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:41am PT
|
Come on y'all, let's not come to blows over this. Let's hope that Abby is safely picked up.
But Dingus, you attack my allegiance one more time and you are cruising for a bruising buster. Dem is fightin' words. Do that again and we'll be meeting behind the bike shed after school. And don't be late. ;-)
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:51am PT
|
Coz, dang it, I am just questioning the wisdom involved, please, please don't turn me into a misogynist. If it was a 16-year-old lad, I'd still wonder if it was the right thing to do as a parent.
Of course I have no children, but I do have a three-year-old cat, and there is no way I'd let Boots try to sail around the world. Not yet at least.
Also Coz, as I mentioned, my godson is a month shy of 21 and he is off to war in a couple of days. And your parents should have smacked you for climbing the Column so young. Just kidding of course.
Dingus in all of these five or so years I have been on the Taco Stand I have enjoyed your posts (for the most part), you and other Supertopians are always welcome to my house in Dalkey - unless Jennie and I win the Euro Millions tonight, then you can spend time with us in either Sausalito or the South of France in our villa, as well as Dalkey (and the Quarry). We can sail and climb the Med. Apparently, Corsica has some great climbing, limestone on the coast and granite inland.
But, again, let's hope Abby is safe.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:54am PT
|
Did you solo the column at 14? In winter?
Comparing climbing the column, with Yosar just around the corner, to sailing solo on the Indian Ocean this time of year is apples to oranges.
I don't think anyone is saying that parents should never let their kids do dangerous things.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
|
I'm so relieved she is OK. I've got an entire shelf of nautical history books sitting here- including a section of solo round-the-world sailing accounts. People survive the craziest things and I had a lot of confidence she would be found alive. Age and gender aside... who are we to tell this girl and her family what she can or cannot achieve?
TomCochrane: I would like to thank you for your well written and insightful posts. You are right on the mark as far as I'm concerned.
|
|
FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
|
Again - thank you tomcochran & slakkey
lets stop kids from riding dirt bikes, climbing, going to the mall or anything that mite be dangerous. God forbid they should walk to school alone. she is an expert. most 16 year old young women are more advanced the boys. boats brake. I'm actually to pissed at you nasayers to write.
don't let them get in a car over 30,000 deaths just in the U.S.
|
|
Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
|
Ken, being in the position that you are in. I am sure that you have seen more than one instance where parents do play a rather significant role in their kids sailing career. I too have served on numerous Junior Sailing committees and Regattas. One of which is the Governor's Cup Junior Match Racing Regatta Hosted by Balboa Yacht Club in which numerous future Americas Cup and Volvo Ocean race participants have passed through at a rather young age. Especially those from places like England, New Zealand and Australia, many of those kids in their mid teens have a desire and in some instances have already competed in longer distance offshore events. Yes they have had the instruction of a Junior Sailing program but even that cannot fully prepare one for something like the southern Ocean or sailing around the world.
As I posted earlier if it were not Abby it would have been someone else. As I am sure you are aware trying to convince some sailing parents is somewhat like talking to a wall. be it another Sunderland or someone else people will continue to push the limits.
|
|
mcreel
climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
|
I was forgetting about the time of year and the different seasons down there. Seems like you'd have to be nuts to try that now, regardless of age. Even Bill Tilman didn't tempt fate that much. Let go of the carp!
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
|
It would be interesting to hear Guido's (Joe McKeown) take on this since he has spent many a year sailing.
Hey, if the kid is mature for their age and competent at their craft (so to speak) then yes, send them off to explore. But as a parent, which I am not, I'd hate to lose a child. My sister Nancy died of polio at seven in 1953 (before I was born) and I know that it devastated my mother. Just think that you allowed your teenager to set off on such a journey alone, with the dangers involved and the kid did not make it. Guilt? Would it be worth it?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!