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Brian
climber
California
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May 26, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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I'm going to stay out of this one, except to say that this...
I think the anonymity of the forum brings out the worst in us.
...is one of the truest things said so far.
There is a reason such posters are generally referred to as "anonymous cowards." I don't understand why, other than cowardice and a desire to poke the hornet's nest anonymously, people hide behind strange avatars. I don't. Jeff Lowe doesn't. Jim Donini doesn't. Jody Langford didn't. Werner Braun doesn't. People from all sides of these debates we have seem to be willing to put their name--either their real name or a very, very well known nickname (e.g., Largo)--to the opinions they espouse.
What the heck are the rest of you hiding from? Just asking.
Brian
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2010 - 03:46am PT
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I'm not sure why I read this thread through but I am glad I did. It is a classic case of tolerance, or even immunity, to wisdom.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 09:43am PT
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The "way through" is to distinguish the intelligent discourse from the crazy pinhead bickering. Which I don't find hard.
The purpose of the original post was to express support for the new word religulous and to express the view that it should have a place in the English lexicon and the thinking person's vocabulary.
Traditional Christian theology purports that... we humans are fallen and flawed and must suffer (because of what our naked forebears did once upon a time in a garden, because of trans-generational hand-me-down guilt). This is religulous. It is religulous precisely because millions of people, even though it's the 21st century, still take it literally, as reality, as opposed to myth or story.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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Brian- If you've been paying attention I don't abuse my anonymity, in other words I don't use my anonymity to flip anybody off or to call anybody names (e.g, leg humper). I use it to call out bs in sensitive areas. That's a distinction if you care to see it.
But don't deny the realities of political incorrectness or persecution in our world regarding minority views. It only shows naivete. Anonymity exists on the internet and at the Taco fire for the same reasons it exists at the voting booth.
Also, don't deny you got a dog in this fight. You're a postdoc in philos (if memory serves) with an interest in (preserving) traditional theological doctrines. Plus, perhaps you read, long ago, I felt philosophy and theology as academic institutions have been in bed together way to long down through the centuries and perhaps this biases you on these species of posts. Understandable.
EDIT Pate- We do sometimes pick the same adjectives... uncanny!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 10:43am PT
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LMAO, Pate!
Pass the coffee...
Hey, you promised me Brian.
...another English muffin?
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Brian
climber
California
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May 26, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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Hey guys,
Just got in toward the end of the day, as I'm on sabbatical in Europe. I guess there are two things you would like me to address.
My position regarding religion is too complex to boil down to a slogan or catchphrase I'm afraid. I'll toss in that I think the atheistic critique of thaumaturgic religiosity in figures like Freud, Nietzsche, and Marx is a good thing. But taken alone it doesn't really understand the half of it. The fundamentalist and literalist religious perspective that Maher, Dennett, Dawkins, and Hitchens are so riled up about is a bit of a red herring. Not to say that some of their critiques are without merit, but they are woefully misinformed if they think all religious believers are simple literalists with respect to received wisdom. It is true that some people are, but that is far from universal even amongst people who do consider themselves religious. The unwillingness of Dennett, Dawkins, et al. to recognize this distinction is intellectually disingenuous at best. It is, dare I say it, religulous insofar as it is unwilling to consider evidence that contradicts the universal application of their caricature to their opponents. If they want to imagine that every religious person thinks the earth was created in six 24 hour periods about 5,000 years ago, or that God smites evildoers and cures the cancer of believers, and so forth than that's OK. It just doesn't map on to reality very well. It is, however, much easier to beat up a straw man or a caricature and to boil your argument down to a pithy neologism. I genuinely understand the temptation to do so, as I see it all the time in undergraduate students (and, sadly, in our politicians).
Like HFCS I've never hid behind the anonymity of the net, having freely offered my opinion on a variety of subjects. Unlike others folks you could probably piece together my actual identity from posts I've made, especially environmental ones. As HFCS points out, I am a professor of philosophy. Following posts that revealed that once could easily put together that I've done work on both philosophy of religion and on environmental philosophy, that I live in California, and so on. However, to save you the trouble I'll make things clear here because I do believe that this would be a better place with real first and last names attributed to posts, that people say many things they would be unwilling to say in person, and that anyone worth his salt will put his name to his words.
EDIT: Removed contact information after Pate's kind post. Folks are more than free to contact me via a PM as well, although response will be (very) delayed while I am on sabbatical (until the fall semester starts back up). Thanks again Pate.
Brian
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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Thanks, Brian. I appreciate the intelligent discourse.
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Brian
climber
California
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May 26, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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Thanks to Pate and HFCS for their kind replies to my last, now edited, post.
Brian
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 26, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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What, four civil posts in a row? Mon Dieu!
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 26, 2010 - 11:58am PT
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Brian,
whether they believe in the "the earth was created in six 24 hour periods about 5,000 years ago" whole nine yards or just some of the parts that are a little more logical... it's like, how do you say, you cant be just a little bit pregnant.
Respect for peoples opinions is warranted but too many wars are being fought and too much of the world runs right now based on these "a little but pregnant" ideas and that is why people like Pate, HFCS and myself have such a knee-jerk reaction and are taking such a harsh tone with religion.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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I firmly believe that you'd see allot more if everyone DID post under their REAL name.
What I find most interesting about those on the "right" that post here and constantly support laws banning the Niqab or Burqua - claiming it is not a religious issue but one of being able to identify someone so they will be more accountable for their actions - is that NONE of them post under their REAL name.
Why is that?
Fear of accountability?
Insecurity of the self?
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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They also made it a personal issue with klimmer and revealed his real identity and threatened him about his job.
Hypocritical assh'holes.
That's why I said they are ugly useless disgusting tools.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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Werner,
So correct and if everyone involved was posting under their full real name, 10-to-1 none of that would have ever happened.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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"...and revealed his real identity..."
I'm calling that bullsh#t, Werner. He revealed himself. And then somebody (who I didn't even know) googled him and linked him. Don't make a mountain out of a molehole, Instigator. If you're unclear, go back and research it before mouthing off.
And now Douglas, apparently naive to realworld realities, is feeding on the mistruth. Just like in politics.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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HFCS,
Post under your real name.
If not you are part of the problem, not the solution.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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Last I heard America was a free and open society where people could express their opinions without fear of retribution. I know it would be naive to believe that it always works that way but I, for one, certainly don't refrain from expressing beliefs that may be out of the mainstream because I feel threatened. If I really felt that way I would look around for some other place to hang my hat, not that I would find a better place than Estados Unidos.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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What's happened with our culture, don't people have balls anymore?
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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I remember some fight in camp 4. Then when the guy who started the fight got his ass kicked ran over and called the rangers.
The rangers came and found out what happened and said we'll have to take both of ya in. The guy who called the rangers then backtracks and immediately drops all charges.
Here on this forum some these anonymous people sling all kinds of sh'it at people like klimber and roxjox and .... then!!! lets say I sling some back their way they freak and think I can't be doing this sh'it.
I'm supposed to act and be how they project their illusions onto people.
These fools are on a battlefield shooting and suddenly the guy they're shooting fires back.
OMFG !!!! they think this can't be happening.
Stupid fools ........
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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FYI, threats of violence from the forum are real. I don't recommend posting under your real name... unless you really don't give a fuk.
Wes,
Some MAY be real some MAY not.
If someone does come after you - hit 'em where it counts.
First press charges then sue to the hilt.
Anyway of any violence were to come from interactions on this forum it WILL BES SHUT DOWN in a mater of days.
Chris is ultimately responsible for any escalation that cones from this forum.
Especially since the call for moderators has been made several times, with regard to the heated discussions here.
I don't believe the majority of people posting to this forum do not want this to happen.
If everyone did act like responsible adults and post under their real name the accountability factor would reign supreme and allot of the BS that goes on would be toned way down.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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Like I said, Werner, immune to wisdom. Drama Queens.
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