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gonamok
Trad climber
Dont look at me like that
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2010 - 08:20am PT
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Gary, i basically agree with your post on consensus. Ratings vary with the individual, and the shorter the routes, the greater the flux will be. Ratings are little more than an indicator of the difficulty and they are pretty much inconsequential except when they are published.
Clarification for GDavis and other similarly comprehension challenged readers: THE SCOPE OF THIS THREAD IS LIMITED TO RATINGS THAT APPEAR IN PUBLISHED GUIDES ONLY.
A guidebook should document a climbing area based on faithful conveyance of historical information and report newer information in an objective and factual manner. The author has a responsibility to avoid bias and stay true to the published record. The hard work and achievements of those who put up the routes as well as those who wrote previous guides needs to be respected by succeeding guides. Using a guide to influence public opinion, rewrite history or serve the authors purpose is irresponsible and disreputable. Any changes made to the existing record must be noted as such, have good justification and be supportable.
In other words you dont change anything unless there is an overwhelming need. If that makes the climbs at mission gorge a little stiffer than at other areas, thats just the way it is. Wholesale adjustments to existing ratings by an author is arrogant, presumptuous and wrong. What is really pathetic about the mission gorge retro ratings is that they are the work of power drunk imbeciles with no sense of propriety. Almost everything was changed.
Changing a 5.0 to 5.2, how stupid does it get? The little Ceasar complex is on display here. "Im gonna change everything because I CAN, not because theres a need".
The people who published these changes are blithering a-holes with no regard for history. Its bullshi t and if you dont like me calling a weasel a weasel you can f uck off too.
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Russ S.
climber
Seattle, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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Gonamok, as you say ratings are a consensus of the people who climb in a particular area. Could it be that the old guard has moved on (you said you hadn't climb there in over 20 years), so the new guidebook that has you so worked up is merely a consensus of today's active MG climbers, or at least the guidebook author's inner circle of climbing friends?
Step back and at least think about it before you flame me...
Btw, in the 2 old guide I have the chimney is 5.2/3rd class and 5.0, so there is precident for the 5.2 rating....
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gonamok
Trad climber
Bite my azz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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No worries Russ, my flaming is always carefully targeted and fully earned. I appreciate your input and agree with what you say, there is a new guard climbing at the gorge, and their consensus is the only one that counts. Some of the new ratings are definately more appropriate, and if that was where it ended i wouldnt have a beef.
My problem is with the irresponsible or ignorant guidebook authors that have made dozens of unnecessary and in some cases plain stupid rating changes. And i agree that these authors probably call their little circle of friends a consensus. Bad is bad. Wrap a turd in pretty paper and its still gonna stink.
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gonamok
Trad climber
Bite my azz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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Warbler, there have been at least 3 guides in the past 10 years, and im not clear on the chronology at this point, but it appears that "research" amounts to copying the previous guide and adding your own routes and ratings, so it just gets worse and worse. I dont have enough info right now to name any names or determine who started down this slippery slope.
Im disgusted with the whole culture of the "guidebook king" and the crap they have churned out to make a buck or publicize their routes.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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C'mon Son's, post up some old or recent Gorge pics! How bout the free ascent of the Thumb?!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Art Messier's guide (copy and paste this URL: http://bioinf.ucsd.edu/~sbandyop/mg_overview.pdf) has The Trapeze at 5.11c...didn't know of this guide.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Much hilarity to be had on Your Lead, circa 1977 (mountainproject.com)...
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Omgoodness, I just realized what route that is...I've done that!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Rectum Roof (mountainproject.com)...
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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That's one cool photo!
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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That Scumbag Digest cover photo of the Trapeze was Kenny Cook, might have been the first lead, I'm not sure. Galen Kirkwood took the photo & developed it at City College.
Seems to me that adding a plus to sub 5.10 routes is a nudge nudge wink wink kind of thing, that the route has traditionally been rated the lower grade, even though everyone knows it's harder. Sort of like Joshua Tree 5.9.
I always thought Gorge grades were fairly consistent to each other. What was the first up-rating that started this trend? Making Nutcracker 5.9 instead of 5.8? Calling Empathy 5.10b instead of 5.9? Art Messier bolting One Step Beyond, renaming it, and bumping it to 11a from 10c? Whatever, that place is the perfect small pond for each successive crew of locals. Its charming and lovable, but a humble backwater nonetheless. I got to spend part of a day there this spring, first time in a good decade, and it was a really great time.
back then
this year
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Gonamuck said: My problem is with the irresponsible or ignorant guidebook authors
Well, I know you include me in that rank, seeing as how I dissed you in a guidebook 32 years ago, without even talking to you or getting the real skinny on what climbs you had been doing. I certainly had my share of irresponsible and ignorant, but what 19 year old doesn't? The earlier comment about possible limitations of a guidebook author's circle of friends seems true, it certainly never occurred to me to question information from one of my buddies. Admit it though, that nickname made you stronger, in a boy-named-sue kind of way, didn't it?
Anyway Ron, I'm sorry to have short shrifted you those many years ago with regards to your efforts at Deerhorn.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Love to hear and see the stories/pics from back before my time! I always felt that I was playing catch-up for I entered into the circle later than most of the kids back then, at 19! Thanks for the cool pictures and stories Off White. Post more if you have them!
Edit: What route is Bob on?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Really cool pics everyone. Thanks for posting.
Side note on adding the + rating to moderates:
I helped out a bit with the new Sedona guide. No ratings were changed in the new guide, but there were cases where things that were most definitely harder than you would expect for the number grade. We chose to respect the original ratings, but on a few occasions added the "+" basically as a warning that the rating is old school and not a whoosie modern sport-climbing feather pillow rating.
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gonamok
Trad climber
Bite my azz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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Hey Doug, we have been ok on that issue forever, so dont beat yourself up because its no big deal. I thought your guide was great, i used it for years. And more to the point, it didnt inflate any of the existing ratings.
Thanks for adding your 2 cents to my little bonfire, lol. Your perspective tends to be down to earth and right on the money and its always welcome.
And yes, carrying the terrible weight of not getting credit for those routes at deerhorn for all these years has made me a better man.
Nice pics too.
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gonamok
Trad climber
Bite my azz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2010 - 02:08am PT
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Warbler, i already wrote a guide to Mission Gorge. Ok, it was 30 years ago, but i knew the place and the people as well as anybody at that time. I didnt tamper with any ratings because i thought only the FA party had that right. Quaint, huh.
Anyway, Im too old, fat, weak and ugly to write a guide now. People just need to understand that you dont get to change whatever you want just because you are writing a guide.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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In 20 years of climbing I have climbed once at MG. Great place!
I could not believe how hard 5.4 could be.
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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Ron
Its a brave new world
Well sometimes perhaps not so brave.
Be glad we were lucky to learn to climb where and when we did.
Rich
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gonamok
Trad climber
Bite my azz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
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hey Rich! great to hear from you. congrats on your new grand daughter.
yah its a new world, but that dont mean i gotta like it, and if i dont like it, somebodys gonna hear about it (in other words, nothing has changed). Hope things are well with you and your family.
ron
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ktmt
Sport climber
Montana
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And what about that great shot of MP pulling Rectum Roof?? Maybe that was an 11c look of teenage terror!
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